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Saturday, June 28, 2014

Zero native job growth since 2000

The facts are clear. The statistics are undeniable. Immigrants have taken ALL the new jobs created in America since 2000. The Center for Immigration Studies reaches three conclusions in a statistical study based on BLS data:
First, the long-term decline in the employment for natives across age and education levels is a clear in­dication that there is no general labor shortage, which is a primary justification for the large increases in immigration (skilled and unskilled) in the Schumer-Rubio bill and similar House proposals.

Second, the decline in work among the native-born over the last 14 years of high immigration is consis­tent with research showing that immigration reduces employment for natives.

Third, the trends since 2000 challenge the argument that immigration on balance increases job oppor­tunities for natives. Over 17 million immigrants arrived in the country in the last 14 years, yet native employment has deteriorated significantly.
Immigration is good for an undeveloped economy in a sparsely settled country. Immigration is BAD for a developed economy in a settled country. Attempting to justify the latter on the basis of the former is, at best, seriously misguided. The economic argument has long been used to justify all the negative societal costs of immigration, and yet, the net effect of third-wave immigration has observably been a net negative for the economy.

Apparently the "jobs Americans won't do" is "all of the new jobs created since 2000". There are fewer native Americans working now than were working 14 years ago, but 5.7 million more employed immigrants. If the millennials want to know why they can't find jobs after graduation, that is the primary reason why.

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88 Comments:

Anonymous Idle HAL 9000 June 28, 2014 4:25 AM  

Yes Vox, I read you.

The logic is undeniable.

Blogger Cranberry June 28, 2014 5:53 AM  

And people will just throw "privilege" and "opportunity" in your face if you complain. Why do you hate immigrants, don't you know you came from immigrants? What if someone wanted to send your ancestors back to where they came from?

It's childish, disingenuous, and completely misses the point, but then, when arguing with overgrown toddlers, that's what you get. Never give a toddler power, he'd kill you just to get to a lolly, because that's what toddlers know: "I want, give me, your reasons don't mean anything."

Alte said something yesterday about the age of onset of puberty lowering to about 12. I thought it was just my imagination, but I suppose others are noticing it as well. Early puberty + extended education + lack of opportunity to do actual grown-up stuff is a bad mix. Lots of hormones and no outlet to gain mastery over oneself. We're screwing ourselves and letting the dogs take the scraps.

Immigration is good for an undeveloped economy in a sparsely settled country. Immigration is BAD for a developed economy in a settled country.

^^^This is the critical point for people to understand. At one time, the US was sparsely settled, and industrialization outpaced native reproduction rates, so in that case immigration = net benefit. We've passed the nadir, and I fear the decline is not going to be a gently sloping hill into a meadow.

Blogger Cranberry June 28, 2014 5:58 AM  

My spidey-senses have been tingling more than usual lately on this matter. Something's up and I don't know what. People seem on edge and more willing to talk about feeling uneasy, like that feeling you get when a big storm is coming on but hasn't arrived yet, not even a cloud in the sky, but you know you'd better batten down the hatches.

Mr. C. and I were talking home defense last night, and moving an additional shotgun and ammo to the bedroom closet, just in case. This is notable to me, because normally Mr. C. is not concerned with such matters. We keep many guns in the house but only one is nearby in our room, the others locked in a safe with their ammo. If HE is concerned that we need to be readily armed, then I know the tingling sense of doom has touched him, too.

He can't qualify it, either.

Blogger IM2L844 June 28, 2014 6:11 AM  

I predict the perpetually outraged will find something about this post to be outraged about...because Vox!

Anonymous A Visitor June 28, 2014 6:29 AM  

I like CIS, NimbersUSA, & VDARE. The article Vox linked to is why. They tell the truth. I believe it was Allen Wall or James Fulfofd of VDARE who said we're not a big empty country anymore too. To put things in perspective, I was 13 in 2000. I don't see this ending well. We really are hosed. Most in my generation care about not appearing racist or homophobic.

Blogger Worlds Edge June 28, 2014 7:02 AM  

What I've never understood is why African-American shakedown artists of the Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton variety are silent on the topic of immigration. First, their interest group is probably the single group most hurt by open borders, and second it actually dilutes their own influence.

As in, though it appears Charles Rangel did squeak out a victory this time, the fact that he won his primary by only three percentage points certainly speaks to a steep decline in the ability of their sort at delivering votes. And I'd submit that if he were not the incumbent he'd have out and out lost.

Anonymous Idle Spectator June 28, 2014 7:22 AM  

My spidey-senses have been tingling more than usual lately on this matter. Something's up and I don't know what. People seem on edge and more willing to talk about feeling uneasy, like that feeling you get when a big storm is coming on but hasn't arrived yet, not even a cloud in the sky, but you know you'd better batten down the hatches.

Maybe AnonCon is right, maybe we really are reaching Peak Narcissism in politics with our false reality.

If true, the complete freakout should be epic.

Anonymous umph June 28, 2014 7:29 AM  

remember America you should be grateful for the jobs immigrants won't do.

Blogger D. Lane June 28, 2014 7:35 AM  

What I've never understood is why African-American shakedown artists of the Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton variety are silent on the topic of immigration. First, their interest group is probably the single group most hurt by open borders, and second it actually dilutes their own influence.

That's an easy one: they don't care. The Sharptons and Jacksons of the world have never been about the interests of their so-called interest groups. If they had been, their decades of silence on the various cancers that have grown throughout the black community would not have been so silent. Dilution of influence is also not an immediate threat, but a long-term one that they're too shortsighted to see. In the short-run, I'd naively suggest that it's good for "business", providing them an opportunity to sell more of their socioeconomic snake oil.

They care about their jobs and the perks that go with them. Only once they become threatened by shifting political tides caused by immigration will they start to speak up. Unfortunately for them, it will be far too late by that point.

Anonymous Tom B June 28, 2014 7:41 AM  

How does the over selling of college degrees factor into this equation? With MBA's being given out like Halloween candy, it no longer is necessary to pay very much to get on your staff, and my own job search for a college instructor position is now the stuff of legend here in the Upstate of South Carolina (148 applications worldwide over two years and only one interview). Its doubtful that those jobs are going to Mexicans and other Central Americans, and the H-1B people aren't going to academia.

Yet these things are somehow related... they just have to be! I'd be curious for everyone's thoughts on this.

Anonymous Idle Spectator June 28, 2014 7:51 AM  

They care about their jobs and the perks that go with them. Only once they become threatened by shifting political tides caused by immigration will they start to speak up. Unfortunately for them, it will be far too late by that point.

Who cares about the blacks anymore?

You can see it in popular culture already. It is going from Spike Lee, Eddie Murphy, and Arsenio Hall over into Hispanic territory. Rap music has severely declined since 2000.

They are already too diluted. Obama, Detroit and Trayvon Martin are Peak Negro.

Anonymous VD June 28, 2014 8:01 AM  

Its doubtful that those jobs are going to Mexicans and other Central Americans, and the H-1B people aren't going to academia.

Who gives a damn. There are a trivial number of jobs in academia. That market is almost entirely irrelevant with regards to immigration. There are less than 1.2 million TOTAL post-secondary instructional jobs in the USA, which is less than one-fourth the number of new jobs that have been created and gone to immigrants in the last 14 years.

OpenID simplytimothy June 28, 2014 8:34 AM  

The American people and its 'ruling class' are at war with one another. The WSJ and their kind will find a new reason to achieve their goals. Currently, the Obamanites are--in a classic Alinsky tactic--creating a humanitarian crisis at the border--and using our tax dollars to do so. From that crisis and chaos they hope to create the conditions to get their new people on our soil.

When Congressional leaders 'privately announced' that immigration reform is dead, I knew immediatly that they where lying. They know their goal and they will use any means to achieve it.

We must not waste time considering their viewpoint any longer as they have proven they are our enemies.


I pray we can avoid a civil war; it will take God's hand to do so.

Anonymous Idle Spectator June 28, 2014 8:37 AM  

César Chávez, the guy you got the "Sí se puede" campaign phrase from, was against illegal immigration.

Because, get this,

...It drove down the wages.

A fucking farm worker from the 70s has more real talk than us.

Anonymous A Plate of Shrimp June 28, 2014 8:38 AM  

"why African-American[s]... are silent on the topic of immigration. First, their interest group is probably the single group most hurt by open borders..."

Because destroying whitey > pursuing their own economic well-being. Besides, the ones who are employable are untouchable thru AA and they know it, so they have no reason to care, other than to throw more wood on the bonfire. And the ones who are unemployable never wanted to work anyway, so they don't care either. They're all just cackling with glee, watching whitey's suicidal demographic eclipse. They couldn't be happier. They don't want the jobs Latinos do [agricultural, manual labor], that's slave shit, remember? They're all going to be rappers and basketball stars, and the ones who can read are going to be mandatory Diversity Consultants.

"There are a trivial number of jobs in academia. That market is almost entirely irrelevant with regards to immigration."

But as a phenomenon and an indicator, it's part of the same general trend and in a way that sheds light on what's happening. Think of it not in terms of scale, but of intensity. You sacrifice, spend 7 or 8 years of your life and go into massive debt to get a Ph.D., and then they give all the academic jobs to foreigners. In a nation of 300 million. And the ones that go to Americans are AA jobs for special groups. This may be numerically insignificant, but spiritually it is profoundly soul-crushing, and it's designed to be that way.

Anonymous Idle Spectator June 28, 2014 8:41 AM  

This may be numerically insignificant, but spiritually it is profoundly soul-crushing, and it's designed to be that way.

It is only soul crushing if you are still stupid enough to play by the old rules.

You need to black knight the shit out of that.

Anonymous Yorzhik June 28, 2014 8:43 AM  

Actually, it's the taxes, regulation, and power grab of the state that has caused the problem, not immigration. As the more complex jobs are run out of the country by said problems, those that do them are left without. Their only saving grace is the fact that there are immigrants available to keep their living costs low enough so it doesn't hurt as much.

Anonymous VD June 28, 2014 8:49 AM  

Actually, it's the taxes, regulation, and power grab of the state that has caused the problem, not immigration.

That is absolutely false. Those things are problems, but the state is interfering less than it did back in the 1930s. We have learned since the 1980s, so don't try to sell that Reagan-era nonsense here. Free trade and immigration destroy developed economies, they do not strengthen it.

Blogger D. Lane June 28, 2014 8:52 AM  

They are already too diluted.

To provide anything of real value to anyone, yes. However, they are still relevant enough to continue milking the cow, so to speak. Only once Mysterious Pablo or Senior Sanchez slaps their hands away from the udder will they start to cry foul on immigration, as Worlds Edge wondered.

It isn't a matter of what they can do for external parties, but for themselves. My main point was that, "Who cares [...]," was never relevant to these people to begin with and that they and their ilk have unwittingly cooked their own goose.

Anonymous H June 28, 2014 8:59 AM  

VDARE has pointed out that people in the comment sections of popular news sites have been saying the same thing, so there seems to be awareness of this phenomenon already. What I haven't seen, though, is people realizing that feminism also potentially doubled the number of doctors, lawyers, engineers (HAH!), office staff, etc. How long until the general public figures that one out?

Anonymous Idle Spectator June 28, 2014 9:06 AM  

Only once Mysterious Pablo or Senior Sanchez slaps their hands away from the udder will they start to cry foul on immigration, as Worlds Edge wondered.

It's happening.

have unwittingly cooked their own goose.

Black swan.

Anonymous Harsh June 28, 2014 9:10 AM  

Actually, it's the taxes, regulation, and power grab of the state that has caused the problem, not immigration. As the more complex jobs are run out of the country by said problems, those that do them are left without. Their only saving grace is the fact that there are immigrants available to keep their living costs low enough so it doesn't hurt as much.

So immigrants are helping out-of-work Americans? Sorry, but I call bullshit.

Anonymous single moms June 28, 2014 9:20 AM  

who need job? Obama print money for all

Anonymous Godfrey June 28, 2014 9:27 AM  

"Immigration is good for an undeveloped economy in a sparsely settled country. Immigration is BAD for a developed economy in a settled country."


Immigration is good if your desire is to destroy the financial independence, and thus political power, of the middle class that threatens the complete financial consolidation and political control of a small ruling elite.

Anonymous A Plate of Shrimp June 28, 2014 9:29 AM  

"It is only soul crushing if you are still stupid enough to play by the old rules."

'Stupid' is an uncharitable and soulless way of putting it. The 'old rules' were a world, at least: and a coherent one. What we have now is chaos, deceit, and quite frankly, genocide. Now you can be 'smart' and black-knight it if you want, but don't pretend that this is still a habitable, coherent world. It's a carnival and an abbatoir. It takes a long time for a sensitive, intelligent, educated person (and don't laugh, there's real value in that) to come to terms with the idea that their world has come to an end --- or rather, has been brought to an end, by deliberate, malignant design. That's some heavy shit, bro, people don't turn on a dime spiritually.

Anonymous For You Blue June 28, 2014 9:31 AM  

"Immigration is good if your desire is to destroy the RACE, and thus political power, of the middle class"

FIFY

Anonymous TLM June 28, 2014 9:35 AM  

Me thinks it's only a matter of time before some fed up rancher or other citizen close to the border unloads on these illegals with a saiga 12. The reaction of the general public should be interesting.

Anonymous Stilicho June 28, 2014 9:36 AM  

but the state is interfering less than it did back in the 1930s.

I doubt that and would like to see support for it (the rest of the statement is spot on). In the 1930s, the state interfered with large brush strokes, and directly controlled certain industries, but I fail to see how this is more interference than the current crop of alphabet agencies (many of which did not exist in the 1930s) that interfere in business, economic, and social affairs from cradle to grave: EPA, DHS, DOE, the expanded IRS, expanded DOL, HUD, Civil Rights Act(DOJ), etc. the rise of the federal bunny inspectors has caused a level of interference that reaches to the smallest actions of citizens but is gargantuan in its scope and effect. So, what causes you to think that the current level of interference is less than the 1930s?

Anonymous Godfrey June 28, 2014 9:43 AM  

Was the currency backed, in some form, by gold or silver back in the 1930's?

OpenID cailcorishev June 28, 2014 9:46 AM  

Actually, it's the taxes, regulation, and power grab of the state that has caused the problem, not immigration.

It's interesting how immigration is seen as sort of a force of nature that just happens when the opportunity is there whether you like it or not, so it's always the result of problems and not the cause.

If you go outside all day on a sunny day and get a sunburn, you'll blame yourself for staying out too long, or for forgetting sunscreen, or for not scheduling your tasks so you could have been out at a less sunny time of day. But you don't blame the sun. Immigration is like that: if we change taxes or regulations in such a way that immigrants flood in, the damage they do is the fault of the taxes and regulations, never the immigration itself.

But immigration isn't like the sun -- we can turn it off. We can control the border and limit immigration to a reasonable level, and go ahead and have whatever taxes and regulations we like, while keeping immigration at that level. We might drive up prices or lower productivity, all the vegetables might rot in the fields, whatever, but that would be our choice; and if we didn't like the results, we could back off the taxes and regulations. We don't have to get burned by immigration.

Anonymous VD June 28, 2014 9:51 AM  

So, what causes you to think that the current level of interference is less than the 1930s?

They aren't killing people's cows in the fields yet. Or confiscating gold. Read up on the National Recovery Administration. All we've seen is a gradual, piecemeal reassembling of the old NRA, which the Supreme Court finally ruled unconstitutional.

Anonymous Godfrey June 28, 2014 9:56 AM  

The middleclass is the target here. The crony global financial elites want to destroy the financial independence of the middleclass (i.e. industrious "serfs" that slightly worked their way up the economic ladder). For the lower classes, continually debased fiat currency and zero percent interest rates destroy the ability to build capital. Fed policy is to prop up asset prices at the expense of the serfs. Who owns assets? ...the wealthy crony insiders.

Blogger D. Lane June 28, 2014 9:56 AM  

It's happening

Indeed. But we have yet to reach the actual boiling point. That won't happen for a few more years.



VDARE has pointed out that people in the comment sections of popular news sites have been saying the same thing, so there seems to be awareness of this phenomenon already. What I haven't seen, though, is people realizing that feminism also potentially doubled the number of doctors, lawyers, engineers (HAH!), office staff, etc. How long until the general public figures that one out?

Immigration and feminism are structurally different problems. With immigration, we simply have basic economic arguments that are easily defeated with rational scrutiny or personal experience. Because the effects of actual immigration policy are readily seen and directly felt within as little as a decade, people "see the light" relatively quickly.

Feminism, on the other hand, is much more insidious. It is a cultural and political tool that quite literally programs people to see the world in a specific way and reinforces that worldview with innumerous pyrrhic victories and propaganda that emotionally validate the belief system. Consequently, it creates its own demand: more people participate in "higher education" and the labor force, driving price up and down, respectively, necessitating that the very people reducing the utility of these things remain in the labor force and pursue further "education" to cover the portfolio of door fees (tuition, etc.) they previously accumulated.

It won't be until endless masses of women (and men) realize that none of the vanity feminism is sold on is actually worth the price of admission that they will begin to reject it as they are starting to reject immigration. If I were to ballpark it, I'd say another 40 years, minimum.

Blogger Nate June 28, 2014 9:58 AM  

The whole "jobs americans won't do" is a damned lie. Always has been.

Anonymous roger u June 28, 2014 10:02 AM  

In other news, your lying eyes were right, the obvious was obvious all along.

Anonymous Steve June 28, 2014 10:05 AM  

Regarding the ever larger dependent class, and ever smaller working class, and displacement, I wonder when someone in our media will finally say: the Emperor has no clothes. I suspect that will be when poverty has reached such a level that people are literally walking around with no clothes. But then again, no. The left still defends the economic policies of Venezuela. I fear the answer is never.

Anonymous Godfrey June 28, 2014 10:06 AM  

The more ignorant illiterate people within the borders of the empire, the easier time the political elites will have in selling hate, envy and "socialism". The wealthy crony financial elite use "socialism" to control and suppress the economic threat posed by the middleclass (i.e. the "bourgeoisie"). Modern "socialism" is a scam. It is a method by which economic classes are frozen into place.

Blogger Bard June 28, 2014 10:09 AM  

"If I were to ballpark it, I'd say another 40 years, minimum"
I was thinking the same thing, however, the tide will turn sooner than 40. Men are fed up with woman bullshit at work. They still fear speaking against it outright, but that is changing with black knighting. Especially in the military.

Blogger Bard June 28, 2014 10:13 AM  

Vox,
Did you read about the town hall meeting in that small VA town? Explicitly stated that we do not want "their kind" here with regards to the criminal child aliens. Made a point of emphasizing the "their kind" to be clear on the record of their stance on political correctness. Stated they are a safe small town where people talk slow and don't want the crime that immigrants bring. It is a beginning.

Anonymous Tom B June 28, 2014 10:14 AM  

"Who gives a damn. There are a trivial number of jobs in academia. That market is almost entirely irrelevant with regards to immigration. There are less than 1.2 million TOTAL post-secondary instructional jobs in the USA, which is less than one-fourth the number of new jobs that have been created and gone to immigrants in the last 14 years."

Besides me, perhaps no one - but then what you responded to wasn't what I was questioning, Vox.

A Plate of Shrimp came closest to "getting" the question; we've talked about how we are overselling college degrees, and how there are no jobs available for recent graduates regardless of their degree field. How does this tie in with the fact that immigrants are growing in the job market and natives are shrinking?

The end game for bringing in immigrants for service/construction/manufacturing-type jobs is obvious -- depressed wages and higher profit margins. But why depress higher-profile jobs?

The shrinking job market for natives with degrees or specialized training only makes sense to me if the purpose is establishing a hierarchy based on where one went to college. With college degrees a dime a dozen, their actual worth is determined by one of two methods - actual knowledge (and we know we're not in a meritocracy) or on a perceived social standing.

You yourself have mentioned how our political parties are simply allowing us to choose between two men approved by the oligarchy (http://voxday.blogspot.com/2004/08/hereditary-oligarchy.html) and in another article said it would be only a few generations before membership in said oligarchy would be completely hereditary.

I personally think the oligarchy isn't content with just politics, but want control over higher levels of employment and are using what college a person attended as a marker for who will be allowed into the club.

But I recognize that I may not have all the relevant data or may be missing an important point. So I ask again, what is the relationship between illegal immigration, low wage jobs and the overselling of college degrees and the depression of higher-status jobs? Is it all part of an overarching "plan" or just a curious coincidence?

Blogger IM2L844 June 28, 2014 10:14 AM  

It won't be until endless masses of women (and men) realize that none of the vanity feminism is sold on is actually worth the price of admission that they will begin to reject it as they are starting to reject immigration.

Once young girls understand this is the face of feminism they will reject it. Feminism isn't cool, kids.

Anonymous VD June 28, 2014 10:27 AM  

In today's Daily Mail, there is a picture of an overcrowded boat full of immigrants. The first comment I saw: "Solution: one torpedo".

People are losing their fear of speaking out. If the speaking out doesn't suffice, the shooting will start.

Anonymous roger u June 28, 2014 10:29 AM  

Tom B,
The perceived social standing of colleges are really the personal connections a graduate makes. What you describe is a connected group putting themselves in the position to grant favors. Those who go to their favored institutions and join the right clubs get the good jobs. Its always been this way to some extent, but with the depressing of wages, it makes the favors that much more important and gives the granters of favors that much more power. They can become true oligarchs.

Anonymous Aphelion June 28, 2014 10:35 AM  

From John Wright, The Last Transcendance...

"Rebellion requires conviction. Once conviction is destroyed, slavery is welcomed and freedom is feared. To destroy conviction..."

What is the post modern world about if not destroying conviction? There are no absolutes is the motto of the age - and internally inconsistent. Whether the major political parties or main stream churches or synagogues, none want to have conviction for the truth that spawned their existence.

Without conviction there is no strength to move a man to do what is right over that which is easy or expected by the powers that be. Today, in America and the West, the press and the governing coalition supports the destruction of conviction by popularizing the Muslim, the Alien and the Pervert over those who believe in what is right and good.

They promote worthless bits of data as money, and destroy its value daily. They diminish the value of work and savings in the same way. If money had value a bank would pay you for its use. Since our money is increasingly valueless, there is no reason to pay the depositer, the banks get more free money from the Fed than they know what to do with. So they throw electronic bits of money into the market and produce a stock price bubble based on devalued currency and stock buy-backs in lieu of growth or profitability. The rich get the free money and are paid bonuses based on the phoney valuee of their inflated stock while the average man is paid nothing to park his money in a bank... and loses money on the proposition to inflation.

Ahh, must go do other things. Perhaps mindless work to maintain my overpriced house will release me from the pain of thinking about our true state as a people and nation.

Anonymous Stilicho June 28, 2014 10:54 AM  

The end game for bringing in immigrants for service/construction/manufacturing-type jobs is obvious -- depressed wages and higher profit margins. But why depress higher-profile jobs?

Same reason applies except that, instead of Aztec and Mayan laborers, they import Indians, Pakistanis, Arabs, and southeast Asians with college degrees. The social destruction you allude to is an added bonus to the Left, but again, it applies to the native blue collar workers and the middle-class college grads alike. Add in affirmative action laws that favor immigrants over native whites and you have a perfect witches brew of progressives "electing a new people". The direct assault on the working class has always been obvious, but the new twist is that the assault on the college-educated has reach proportions where it is now readily apparent as well.

Anonymous LES June 28, 2014 11:12 AM  

Is it good for Israel?

Anonymous Michael June 28, 2014 11:18 AM  

From what I understand, there is now a 'wall of militia' along the Mexico border. Americans are sick and tired of the political theater and are finally beginning to take matters into their own hands. How can the government claim to be concerned about national security while they not only allow for an invasion of third-world immigrants but promise them amnesty to boot? Remember that this administration allowed illegals to hold a demonstration on "closed" public land, but threatened to arrest veterans for visiting national monuments. The other day there was that story about a veteran who's being evicted for displaying an American flag on his property.

This is what happens when Marxists are given positions of power - dictator mode kicks in and all hell breaks loose.

Anonymous Roundtine June 28, 2014 11:37 AM  

UKIP showed how fast it can turn into an issue. They formed the party to get out of the EU and one of the issues is border control. Immigration became the centerpiece of the recent election because of the public's reaction. UKIP didn't plan an anti-immigration campaign, the public demanded one. The same would happen in America if a legitimate politicians made it an issue. The Republicans are trending libertarian though, not conservative.

Anonymous Roundtine June 28, 2014 11:38 AM  

I wonder what would happen if a black Democrat ran on an anti-immigration platform. Could sweep the south and the rust belt at least.

Anonymous Yamato June 28, 2014 11:41 AM  

But will the media (that's a codeword) allow the people of the UK to leave the EU.

Anonymous Steve June 28, 2014 1:19 PM  

I used to wonder when the supposedly pro-labor democrats would wake up and begin using immigration against the Chamber of Commerce GOP, but I don't wonder any more. The democrats are not pro-labor except as it regards to teachers' unions and government workers and an increase in immigration increases demands for teachers and government services. So that will never happen. Unfortunately the GOP really is a Chamber of Commerce mouthpiece so a true objection will never happen from the GOP either. To put it simply: One party does not care about depression of wage rates and the other party actively wants a depression of wage rates. The future does not look great.

OpenID cailcorishev June 28, 2014 2:52 PM  

So I ask again, what is the relationship between illegal immigration, low wage jobs and the overselling of college degrees and the depression of higher-status jobs?

They look like part of the same process to me. Illegal (and legal) immigration lowers wages and ties up manual labor jobs, so Americans who would have graduated from high school and gotten a job on a farm or in a slaughterhouse 50 years ago now get funneled into dumbed-down college programs. On top of that, we're now importing white-collar workers and turning fields like computer programming and medical work into "jobs Americans won't do," so that's going to push more college kids toward fields where that's not happening (yet). Fields like government and academia. But those are also fields that have been used to give affirmative action candidates somewhere to go, so there aren't a lot of spots left for white, middle-class natives.

It doesn't have a great effect on the overall problem of joblessness, because it's a fairly small niche. But it's a microcosm that you can look at to see where the rest of us are headed if the flood isn't stopped.

Anonymous Dr. Illusion June 28, 2014 3:11 PM  

I work in the industrial world. Saw mills, paper mills, chemical plants, refineries. It's hard work, it's always boiling hot or freezing cold.

The starting pay at my current job is 15/hr. Our turnover rate for employees is extreme. We hire white American men all the time.

These men realize they are expected to actuate 30 year old, rusty valves right next to boilers, with an ambient temp of 150 degrees....and actually get dirty.....and they quit to go find a white collar job. Despite the fact that, if they kept working, they would be making 25/hr within a year.

Mexicans think this job is the best thing that has ever happened to them, and volunteer for overtime.

Yet you want me to believe that Americans will work any job? I call bullshit. I'm a white American. I love me job, and certainly enjoy my 6 figure income. But most Americans are obsessed with "office jobs" and think getting sweaty, dirty and exhausted is below them.

Just saying.

Anonymous Yorzhik June 28, 2014 4:48 PM  

[b]VD said:

but the state is interfering less than it did back in the 1930s. We have learned since the 1980s, so don't try to sell that Reagan-era nonsense here. Free trade and immigration destroy developed economies, they do not strengthen it.[/b]

Free trade (including trading of labor) must help a country, because every transaction that goes on between employer and employee (cheap immigrant labor in this case) must benefit both sides of the transaction or else it wouldn't have been made.

But it goes deeper than that. Because a farmer can get his crop picked for half the cost by employing immigrants, everyone benefits in lower food costs. And with lower costs to everyone, the economy can do better.

If you think immigrants vote for more statist culture, please note that voting for what is right or wrong is the bad idea, not the immigration.

If you think the culture will change? That's OK as long as the culture doesn't do what is wrong. They have to follow the good laws regardless of their former culture.

Anonymous Alte June 28, 2014 4:49 PM  

"My spidey-senses have been tingling more than usual lately on this matter. "

I know what you mean, Cranberry. A sort of general sense of unease and anticipation.

It feels quite concrete to me this week because my husband and the neighborhood guys have had to run of gypsies twice this week.

Blogger Eric June 28, 2014 4:51 PM  

Blacks don't care about illegal immigration because it's easier to go on the dole than take the jobs the Mexicans are taking. The children of those Mexican immigrants feel the same way - that's why the business interests need a fresh crop of illegals every year.

Anonymous A Kind of Alaska June 28, 2014 4:59 PM  

"Because a farmer can get his crop picked for half the cost by employing immigrants, everyone benefits in lower food costs. And with lower costs to everyone, the economy can do better."

TRANSLATION: I am the Grand Vizier of Planet Stupid.

Anonymous CorkyAgain June 28, 2014 5:18 PM  

Remember that this administration allowed illegals to hold a demonstration on "closed" public land, but threatened to arrest veterans for visiting national monuments. The other day there was that story about a veteran who's being evicted for displaying an American flag on his property.

The frogs boiling in the pot should be just about done, don't ya think?

Blogger Jefferson Selvy June 28, 2014 5:20 PM  

I'm pretty sure that civil war is inevitable. A true civil war which is a horror we as a nation have not known before. Not if but when.

Blogger Eric June 28, 2014 5:22 PM  

Free trade (including trading of labor) must help a country, because every transaction that goes on between employer and employee (cheap immigrant labor in this case) must benefit both sides of the transaction or else it wouldn't have been made.

I guess, if the only part of the country you care about are the aggregate numbers the government reports. But don't you think think we'd all be better off if Americans mowed their own lawns, took care of their own children, and had opportunities to work at a wage that wasn't depressed by outsourcing or immigrant labor?

Blogger Jefferson Selvy June 28, 2014 5:23 PM  

I still wonder what happened to the "Obama's gonna pay my rent" lady.

Anonymous Alte June 28, 2014 5:40 PM  

"Blacks don't care about illegal immigration"

Nope. It's an economic divide, same as with whites. Neither working class blacks nor whites have any political representation in the major parties. That's why they don't vote: both parties are pro-immigration.

Blogger Craig Marshall June 28, 2014 5:47 PM  

'Infidels must wear red collars and shave heads': 'Nazi' vision of Muslim Britain from Imam who ran 'Isis' barbecue in Welsh park

Abu Waleed, 35, was seen at event in Cardiff bedecked with Isis flags
Al Qaeda splinter group Isis has been joined by three young Welsh jihadis
Now a video has emerged outlining Waleed's startling views on society
Non-Muslims cannot walk on the pavement and should ride mules, he says
They 'should give nice clothes to Muslims and wear mismatched shoes'
Moderates furiously criticised Waleed, from Hounslow, west London
Lib Dem peer said speech was similar to 'very worst views of Adolf Hitler"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2673493/Infidels-wear-red-collars-shave-heads-Nazi-vision-Muslim-Britain-Imam-ran-Isis-barbecue-Welsh-park.html

Anonymous Yorzhik June 28, 2014 5:52 PM  

Eric said:

I guess, if the only part of the country you care about are the aggregate numbers the government reports. But don't you think think we'd all be better off if Americans mowed their own lawns, took care of their own children, and had opportunities to work at a wage that wasn't depressed by outsourcing or immigrant labor?


Of course we do better to outsource the lawn labor to immigrants (assuming they offer the best rate to do the work). If one isn't doing better to hire an immigrant, they'd do their own lawn work.

Remember, in general all items purchased from outside the country are owned by a private citizen before it even gets in this country. Also, in general all the value of the work performed in this country is owned by a citizen who can compete for your business better if he can get better labor rates.

Anonymous Idle Spectator June 28, 2014 6:01 PM  

I still wonder what happened to the "Obama's gonna pay my rent" lady.

Crack.

Anonymous Yamato June 28, 2014 6:02 PM  

The Guardian reported that some 50,000 people marched in London to protest against austerity. They cried: “Who is really responsible for the mess this country is in? Is it the Polish fruit pickers or the Nigerian nurses? Or is it the vampire squid bankers who plunged it into economic disaster – or the tax avoiders? It is selective anger.”

Civil Unrest Result will not be pretty.

But will the media allow the unrest? Will they allow China and Russia to take away their control of the financial system or will they start WW3 to prevent it?

Blogger Rantor June 28, 2014 6:27 PM  

York hick, you are an idiot to the nth degree. Like many of my libertarian friends, you fail to see the obvious and blissfully assume that all these immigrants want to be free, capitlalist, democracy loving Americans and are not in fact seeking a hand out. Nor would they vote for socialism, just because it is all most of them know. No they won't do that.

Blogger Rantor June 28, 2014 6:29 PM  

And I mow my own lawn and trim my trees and hedges. Since I don't earn money on the weekend, it is cheaper than paying anyone else to do it.

Anonymous A Kind of Alaska June 28, 2014 6:42 PM  

"Of course we do better to outsource the lawn labor to immigrants (assuming they offer the best rate to do the work)."

God you're a moron. And an ideologue, which is even worse.

First of all, fuckhead, they aren't "immigrants". Immigrants go through a legal immigration system. They are alien invaders, foreign looters.

Second of all, great, you save a little on your lawn-mowing and fruit-picking costs. But you also...

--Now have to pay to send your kids to private schools, because the public schools are teeming with non-English-speaking, ineducable foreign ninos;
--Can't go to your local emergency room because it, too, is packed to the gills with foreign ninos;
--Your wife can't go to the grocery store or the gas station without being cat-called by foreigners;
--You pay extra property taxes to pay for the schools which are straining to handle the massive influx of foreign ninos;
--You pay extra state and local taxes to finance the ever-increasing cost of social services for endless foreign invaders and their endless ninos;
--You pay extra in health costs because of the new foreign diseases trucked in by foreigners and their ninos;
--Your housing standards are depressed by foreigners sleeping twenty to an apartment, thirty to a one-family home;
--Every so often you have to pull up stakes and move to a newer, more distant, more expensive housing development just to get your family away from the crime, noise, crowding, and social unpleasantness caused by foreigners and their ninos;
--Your children are harassed and beaten up in the streets by foreign ninos;
--You have to endure the indignity of selecting English from among a plethora of languages, as if it were just another language option and not the language of your nation; you have to walk down the street and hear an endless babble of foreign tongues; you can go through your hometown and do business all day long without ever once hearing a normal American accent; you get on a bus or a train and see nothing but dreary foreign faces who have nothing to do with America, and hear nothing but loud babbling in Spanish;
--You begin to wonder if you even _have_ a country any more.

Gee whiz, Einstein, you must REALLY love your lawn.

Fuckwit.

Anonymous Yamato June 28, 2014 8:03 PM  

Do not assume all humans are alike:

French psychiatrists in Algeria found themselves faced with a difficult problem. When treating a melancholic patient, they were accustomed to being afraid of suicide. The melancholic Algerian kills, however. This disease of the moral conscience that is always accompanied by self-accusation and self-destructive tendencies assumes hetero-destructive forms in the Algerian. The melancholic Algerian does not commit suicide. He kills. (Fanon, 1970, pp. 219-220)

Anonymous lurker June 28, 2014 9:48 PM  

"If you think immigrants vote for more statist culture, please note that voting for what is right or wrong is the bad idea, not the immigration.

If you think the culture will change? That's OK as long as the culture doesn't do what is wrong. They have to follow the good laws regardless of their former culture."

Did you write that after spinning around real fast many times? Because it's completely incoherent. Prepare to have your "arguments" demolished.

Anonymous Yorzhik June 28, 2014 11:14 PM  

Did you write that after spinning around real fast many times? Because it's completely incoherent. Prepare to have your "arguments" demolished.
It's rather truncated which makes what I said rather cryptic. I have a little more time and I'll expand here.

The point is that many problems from immigration that people cite are symptoms.

A common one is the change in culture. But that isn't really a problem unless it's an evil culture. Good laws mitigate the problem of an evil culture. As long as people aren't stealing, assaulting, murdering, or committing adultery (a good law that should be re-instituted) then viva la difference in culture. The real problem is a bad justice system.

Another common symptom cited is how immigrants vote for left-wing things. But the real problem is allowing virtually all adults to vote.

Another problem cited is that immigrants take social monies without having paid into the welfare system. The real problem is that welfare exists.

Another problem cited is how public schools cater to immigrants. The real problem is that government schools exist.

The solution to immigration is to allow immigrants to come into the country as long as they are thoroughly identified on their way in. Any bio identification like finger prints, retinal scan, hair samples, pictures, height and weight, and even a voice print probably won't hurt.

Then, it's much easier to protect the border because you have the moral authority to shoot anyone without apprehending them that comes across the border outside of the checkpoints. Guard towers and chain link fence are a lot cheaper to build and maintain than a hard fence. That's what is mostly in the no mans land in Korea and it works. Well, that and land mines. But the problem on the southern border would be a great deal less than what land mines would be required for.

Anonymous Yorzhik June 28, 2014 11:18 PM  

I also need to mention that no country is obligated to let anyone in at all. However, we have a lot of work that needs cheap labor demonstrated by the fact that we have used all the cheap labor that has come so far with a lot more work that could be done if we had more of the labor that people are happy to take at lower wages.

Anonymous A Kind of Alaska June 28, 2014 11:31 PM  

"The solution to immigration is to allow immigrants to come into the country as long as they are thoroughly identified"

There are already 300+ million people in a country where, only half a lifetime ago, there were only 200 million people. World War II was won, and half the planet conquered, by a country of only 150 million. Why should we allow ANY immigrants in, any immigrants at all --- let alone ones that come from cultures and races and religions which are either alien to us, or hostile, or completely incompatible? Why? Because you like Chinese food? We don't need any more people here, and certainly not hostile peoples, or those who nurse a grudge against us. How many is enough for you, you selfish prick? 500 million? 600? A billion? Just so you can cling to your retarded principles?

"But the real problem is allowing virtually all adults to vote."

So, in your view, the historic American people are supposed to turn their own political system upside down just to safely accommodate a bunch of foreigners? You'll have to take me on a tour of your favorite crack houses some time.

"A common one is the change in culture. But that isn't really a problem unless it's an evil culture."

And who's going to be the arbiter of whether or not it's an evil culture? You -- Captain Crackhead? Whether it's evil or not, it is OUR culture, and it is being permanently altered and destroyed by a massive and entirely unwanted (except for crackheads like you) flood of utterly incompatible and often enemy peoples. If we find it evil, we can find the wherewithal within ourselves to fix it -- we don't need a flood of foreign paupers to help us. We don't WANT a flood of foreign paupers to help us; they are being foisted upon us against our will by an elite and a government which hate their own people.

You're living in a theoretical fantasy land. Time to come back to reality. Stay off the pipe.



Anonymous Roundtine June 28, 2014 11:50 PM  

But most Americans are obsessed with "office jobs" and think getting sweaty, dirty and exhausted is below them.

I don't doubt there's truth in that statement. But the problem with using immigrants is that based on the evidence, their children will be "American" in that negative sense of unwilling to do these jobs and less capable. One generation later, you have a bigger problem.

Anonymous lurker June 29, 2014 12:28 AM  

"The real problem is a bad justice system."

Actually the real problem is a flawed justice system becoming even more corrupt and negligent DUE TO the immigrant flood. When something is flawed and weak like the justice system foisting more problems upon it is not going to make it better, capisce? Don't you understand you are taking the position of the criminal elite and corrupt politicians not everyday citizens?

Anonymous Daniel H June 29, 2014 1:23 AM  

@simplytimothy

>>I pray we can avoid a civil war; it will take God's hand to do so.

I welcome a civil war.

Anonymous Daniel H June 29, 2014 1:39 AM  

@ Dr. Illusion

>>I work in the industrial world. Saw mills, paper mills, chemical plants, refineries. It's hard work, it's always boiling hot or freezing cold.

The starting pay at my current job is 15/hr. Our turnover rate for employees is extreme. We hire white American men all the time.

These men realize they are expected to actuate 30 year old, rusty valves right next to boilers, with an ambient temp of 150 degrees....and actually get dirty.....and they quit to go find a white collar job. Despite the fact that, if they kept working, they would be making 25/hr within a year. <<

Could you please inform us who these companies are. Since you work there, or have worked there in the past you must know their names. If you don't wish to reveal the name of your current employer how about giving us the name of previous employers. I am very much interested in finding a job in such company.

Anonymous Alte June 29, 2014 7:10 AM  

Loved your list, especially this one.

"--You have to endure the indignitheof selecting English from among a plethora of languages, as if it were just another language option and not the language of your nation"

Everytime I go to a city here, I feel like a tourist, even when most of the people speak German. My dialect, my food, my clothing, etc. Nowhere to be found.

Blogger hadley June 29, 2014 8:53 AM  

Dr. Illusion: "Yet you want me to believe that Americans will work any job? I call bullshit. I'm a white American. I love me job, and certainly enjoy my 6 figure income. But most Americans are obsessed with "office jobs" and think getting sweaty, dirty and exhausted is below them."

You are absolutely correct! As long as better paid jobs with better working conditions exist then people will migrate to them. Making more money for less work is much preferred. It leaves one with a life outside of work and a healthy body.

I am a bit puzzled, however. You think this is bad? Normal people strive for this. My wife, for one, likes indoor plumbing and flush toilets. She loves hot water heaters. She really doesn't want to get "sweaty, dirty and exhausted" firing up a wood stove to heat a pot of wash water, carrying water from a well on her back or emptying chamber pots. I expect your wife is the same. Do you insist that your wife get "sweaty, dirty and exhausted" doing these things to show her true willingness to work (at any wage)? Is she lazy and unmotivated because she would divorce your ass in a second if you insisted she prove her worth and earn her pay by toiling like her great-grandmother? And I say this as a man who spend a long time pulling chains and blowing tubes in the fire room fidley where my glasses would get so hot from the 900 degree superheated steam pipes that they would burn my ears and the bridge of my nose and the lenses get so coated with dry salt from the sweat dripping on them and instantly drying that I couldn't see through them.

Nasty work is nasty work. There is no nobility or honor in being physically broken down. And the answer is not inviting immivasion by low-IQ peasants from the third world but by raising pay and automating physically damaging and dangerous tasks. You seem to treasure your heat, sweat, exhaustion and "thirty-year-old valves". Please, enjoy if it gives you a thrill. But I suspect you haven't performed that work for many, many years.

Anonymous VD June 29, 2014 10:09 AM  

Free trade (including trading of labor) must help a country, because every transaction that goes on between employer and employee (cheap immigrant labor in this case) must benefit both sides of the transaction or else it wouldn't have been made.

Let reason be silent when experience gainsays its conclusions. Your theory is wrong. Blindly restating your incorrect theory, with which everyone is already familiar, isn't going to convince anyone.

Anonymous A Kind of Alaska June 29, 2014 10:31 AM  

"every transaction that goes on between employer and employee (cheap immigrant labor in this case) must benefit both sides of the transaction or else it wouldn't have been made."

The immigrant doesn't benefit from his crappy low-paid job with his employer; he benefits by getting to live in a country that is richer, cleaner, healthier, more peaceful, more sophisticated and more generous than his native shit-hole. Bring in enough such immigrants and you transform the rich, clean, healthy country into yet another shit-hole. The employer, as usual, privatizes profits and socializes costs. You're a moron.

OpenID simplytimothy June 29, 2014 12:54 PM  

Free trade (including trading of labor) must help a country, because every transaction that goes on between employer and employee (cheap immigrant labor in this case) must benefit both sides of the transaction or else it wouldn't have been made.

Let reason be silent when experience gainsays its conclusions. Your theory is wrong. Blindly restating your incorrect theory, with which everyone is already familiar, isn't going to convince anyone.



I have read that "Let reason be silent.." adage a dozen times and this is the first time I have seen it deployed in an actual debate.
Well done and thank you for another lesson.

Anonymous Yorzhik June 29, 2014 1:26 PM  

Let reason be silent when experience gainsays its conclusions. Your theory is wrong. Blindly restating your incorrect theory, with which everyone is already familiar, isn't going to convince anyone.
But experience is being skewed by bad government. Food prices would be higher because labor costs would be higher if we didn't allow free trade (including the trade of labor). This also leads to worse government since giving them control over what citizens can do with their own stuff is tyranny. When the government controls what one owns depending on where something was purchased, it gives them the moral reason to control what one can own, or what one can do with what they own, with things purchased inside the country. That's a bad thing and an unintended consequence of limiting trade.

What we have to do is find the problem and solve that, not create a bigger problem by trying to have government micromanage the market.

And as I understand it, according to you the biggest problem of allowing immigrant labor is that wages will go down for the people of the host country. But that's OK as long as the buying power of the earnings increases at the same time. For instance, if immigrants are allowed into the country to work farms, food prices across the board go down.

This has an other benefits, too. The Farmer makes a better profit, the people have more money to use for other things so more commerce and innovation can happen because of the freed up money. You might counter that people won't be able to have any money freed up because they don't have a job because the immigrant was willing to take less pay for the farm work or the construction work. But that makes no sense because if a person that can speak the language and lives nearby were to do the job for the same rate, the farmer or contractor would prefer them. So why aren't Americans taking the jobs from the immigrants? For the obvious reason: they have other opportunities. Americans would be happy to take the low wages and hard work the immigrants are now taking if there were no other opportunities. Whether it be welfare in all its forms, or other work. And obviously we could do with a bit more immigration because immigrants are able to find work very easy.

OpenID simplytimothy June 29, 2014 1:58 PM  

This has an other benefits, too

No costs? No trade-offs? Its all unicorns and tacos with you guys.

For the obvious reason: they have other opportunities. Americans would be happy to take the low wages and hard work the immigrants are now taking if there were no other opportunities.

You have jumped the shark.



Anonymous CorkyAgain June 29, 2014 2:09 PM  

Free trade (including trading of labor) must help a country, because every transaction that goes on between employer and employee (cheap immigrant labor in this case) must benefit both sides of the transaction or else it wouldn't have been made.

The flaw in this argument is where it equates "the country" with the two parties to the transaction.

The employer and employee do benefit, in varying degrees. But the citizen who is denied the job taken by the immigrant derives no benefit from the transaction.

Neither does the community of natives like him, who find their culture being replaced by that of the immigrant.

In other words, the argument is a variation on Bastiat's "broken window" fallacy.

Anonymous map June 29, 2014 7:01 PM  

Dr. Illusion,

"These men realize they are expected to actuate 30 year old, rusty valves right next to boilers, with an ambient temp of 150 degrees....and actually get dirty.....and they quit to go find a white collar job. Despite the fact that, if they kept working, they would be making 25/hr within a year."

So why not end the turnover and start them out at 25/hr if they would be making that within a year anyway?

Again, we have a labor shortage created because you don;t want to pay the wages for that work. And the men are leaving because they are getting better jobs elsewhere.

Anonymous map June 29, 2014 7:02 PM  

Yorzhik,

"Free trade (including trading of labor) must help a country, because every transaction that goes on between employer and employee (cheap immigrant labor in this case) must benefit both sides of the transaction or else it wouldn't have been made."

And what about everyone outside that transaction, like the taxpayers paying for the healthcare of said employee that the employer does not cover.

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