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Wednesday, December 06, 2017

Mailvox: throwing girls to the wolves

Rollory disapproves of men protecting their daughters. He claims Dalrock does too, although I would not be so sure of that.
This is the sort of thing Dalrock rips to shreds every chance he gets. I don't always agree with every detail of his argument but it's definitely worth thinking about.

The message this shirt is sending is "I belong to my daddy, not to the young man who might otherwise be interested." It's crazy for the young woman, it's crazy for the father, and any young man who is sane will receive the message loud and clear and stay far away, choosing instead another girl whose father ISN'T playing the overprotective sexually jealous guardian.

An excess of suitable young grooms needing ever stricter winnowing is not at all the problem facing marriageable young women today. Again, Dalrock has covered this, and continues to do so.
Dalrock is good on many subjects, particularly on the Church and feminism, but if Rollory is correct and the message on this t-shirt is the sort of thing that Dalrock rips to shreds every chance he gets, then he doesn't understand female psychology very well, nor would he appear to have daughters or sisters. It may help to keep in mind that this is the original context of the phrase.
  1. Take a position on high ground somewhere in the middle with clean sight lines of the entire route.
  2. Load a round into your .50 caliber rifle.
  3. Take the lens covers off the scope.
  4. Watch as your little girl walks off to school by herself.
There is nothing crazy about a father being protective of his daughters. There is nothing even remotely crazy about a young woman wanting to feel protected by her daddy. While people can, and do, go too far - and anything that is more suited for a wedding or a high school prom is going too far - there is nothing overprotective or "sexually jealous" about paternal protectiveness; anyone leaping to that conclusion is raising serious questions about their own psychosexual issues. The ironic thing about citing Dalrock in this regard is that Dalrock regularly complains about "feral" young women; he even has a category called Feral Females.

Now, where do you suppose feral young women come from, families where men protect their daughters or families where men simply throw their daughters to the vagaries of sexual selection, to fend off the predators as best they can on their own? The symbolism of the t-shirt is less about winnowing the suitable young grooms, than it is about giving the daughter the strength and the permission to say "no" to the wrong ones in the full knowledge that her father will have her back.

But as it happens, the real target of the message is not men. The t-shirt is actually status-signaling on the part of the daughter, or the wife, when that version of the t-shirt is ready. It is less a warning to young men than it is bragging to other young women that she is valued, that she is loved, and that she is worthy of protection by a man who is strong enough to provide it for her. Both Dalrock and Rollory appear to have forgotten that support and protection are the two primary male roles in every relationship with women and children, and that stable young women really do treasure those things.

I suspect a telling determinant will be who loves these shirts and who hates them. My prediction is that good girls from strong families will love the message and feminists will furiously hate it. The more interesting question, and one to which I do not have an answer, is: why do men like Dalrock and Rollory dislike it so much?

Regardless, King Edward's motto is appropriate.

Honi soit qui mal y pense.


UPDATE: since we're discussing the shirt, I should mention that the long-sleeve crewneck version is now available as well.

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303 Comments:

1 – 200 of 303 Newer› Newest»
Blogger James Dixon December 06, 2017 5:26 AM  

I think a country song is applicable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM42nG7Tjgs

Anonymous Looking Glass December 06, 2017 5:28 AM  

I meant to reply to Rollory, but I didn't get around to it. He's making multiple situations into a dichotomy. Dalrock has outlined some chunks that go WAAAAAAAAAAY over the line, but they go over the line because they're trying to protect their daughters from a Churchian frame.

There's a big difference between the half-joke/half-serious T-shirt that Crypto.Fashion just put up (seriously, great shirts!) and things like "Her Body, Her Choice" shirts or some of the actually creepy "give her a ring" stuff. Rollory isn't guilty of hair-splitting; he's guilty of missing the point.

We run into this a lot in Theology, whether people realize it or not. The opposite of something Wrong or Stupid is in no way assured to not also be Wrong or Stupid. However, the instinct is to create the false contrasts to serve the ends of the person making the contrast. It's a classic Media Tactic, but it's ages old. "Did God reeeeeally mean that? Really?"

There's also an undercurrent that all things proper and masculine are given a negative connotation. The World doesn't want daughters protected, so they slime the Men that protect their daughters. Into that comes the "I know what I'm doing!" Churchians and make an issue hard to deal with completely insane.

Anonymous Looking Glass December 06, 2017 5:30 AM  

Shorter version: Churchians still have instincts to protect their daughters, but they can't run afoul of the Feminists. Bats**t insanity ensues. Some of it gets really creepy, really fast, but most of it comes off as pathetic.

Anonymous E Deploribus Unum December 06, 2017 5:32 AM  

Dalrock's objection, I think, is not to fatherly care and interest but -- in his words -- to fathers who act like their daughter's "surrogate husband". So I suspect it's Rollory who has misinterpreted Dalrock.

Blogger James Dixon December 06, 2017 5:35 AM  

Oh, I should add: "Regardless, King Edward's motto is appropriate. Honi soit qui mal y pense."

Things like this are why I read Vox Popoli.

Blogger Al From Bay Shore December 06, 2017 5:37 AM  

SOLD! I didn't feel funny about the immediate decision to get that shirt upon first seeing it. The above commentary eliminated any doubt that I might have. In fact, I think I have some friends who, upon learning about it, will ask "Yo! Where'd you get that joint?"

Anonymous burgmeister December 06, 2017 5:46 AM  

It's very interesting that even guys who value an orthodox church seem to oppose this kind of message.

What els is a marriage proposal than a demand of the guy to the father to take over the protection/support responsibilities? And the marriage is the celebration of such?

Blogger Jeff aka Orville December 06, 2017 6:01 AM  

I thank God that I didn't have daughters, not because they are solipsistic, but because of the wide open predation out there. If I had a daughter, I'd have this mindset. A better example might be Rollo Tomassi who has a daughter, whom he has prepared for a red pilled suitor.

Anonymous Dividualist December 06, 2017 6:04 AM  

"fathers who act like their daughter's "surrogate husband" "

Actually it is the other way around, husbands are surrogate fathers of their wives, because most women (exceptions excepted) are effectively children and need to be protected from their own mistakes.

This is a very confused view. Fathers are not surrogate husbands, they don't do husbandly stuff like having sex with their daughters. Husbands are surrogate fathers as they do normal fatherly stuff like ruling over her, preventing her from making mistakes, and protecting her from other men, and generally whatever fathers should do with a child or in case of women a childish adult.

Why is it hard for Darlock to see?

Blogger Lovekraft December 06, 2017 6:10 AM  

The t-shirt's similar to a "No Trespassing" or "Intruders will be shot" sign on a home or business. Reflects awareness of the harsh reality of the world and the court's and law enforcement's failure.

A variation on the shirt could be something like "This crucifix does not mean I accept heathens or jihadist (soft and feral)."

Blogger Timmy3 December 06, 2017 6:11 AM  

That’s a weird T-shirt message regardless. It’s like stalking from afar when you already lost control and authority. So you’ll shoot someone who might attack your daughter along the way to school? Being attracted to is considered attacking. Okay, maybe if we’re a Muslim nation.

Anonymous Simplytimothy December 06, 2017 6:13 AM  

Always warms my heart to read the

Rules for dating a drill instructor s daughter

https://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/532-12.aspx#startofcomments

Blogger Daniel December 06, 2017 6:18 AM  

Honi soit qui mal y pense

The motto of the Royal Order of the Garter, as well as the Royal Canadian Horse Artillery.

Anonymous Heywood December 06, 2017 6:23 AM  

The female-to-female status signaling is there.

The father not letting his daughter mudshark is there.

What's also there is Churchianity Cucks worshiping at the female imperative, and Nothing Is Good Enough For My Princess Before She Gets Her 3 Degrees and Her HR Career so she can settle with some provider schlub at the age of 39 and adopt 3 African niglets for the greater glory of Judeo-Christ.

What you read into it very much depends on whom we are talking about.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera December 06, 2017 6:31 AM  

This reminds me of Heartiste and Steve Sailer getting cold feet about Weinsteingate, because it "pathologizes male sexuality". You have to wonder what planet they think they're living on.

Anonymous Vincent December 06, 2017 6:53 AM  

What dalrock despises is the churchian cliche of the white knight standing there with a shotgun to make sure only the most perfect betas of betas dates his daughter--while she sighs and goes off with a thug.

Oh and he's wearing a shirt that says "her body her choice her rules."

Anonymous ZhukovG December 06, 2017 6:54 AM  

Man, some of the fine folks that comment here are either autistic software developers (It must be a 1 or a 0!!!!), or were issued seriously defective senses of humor.

Blogger James Dixon December 06, 2017 6:55 AM  

> That’s a weird T-shirt message regardless.

Not if you have a daughter. Or even a sister.

Blogger Cataline Sergius December 06, 2017 6:56 AM  

Guys if you are going to offer a negative opinion on this Tee-shirt and you don't have daughters, please preface your statement with, "I don't have any daughters myself but..."

This will allow the rest of us to differentiate between simple ignorance...and abject stupidity.

We can then treat you accordingly.

Blogger Phillip George December 06, 2017 6:58 AM  

for this reason a man or woman would leave their father's house?

the Overton Window to smash is this one.

Who says virginity has no value? That nothing is "lost"? That a bridge isn't burned.

It isn't a question of one girl's integrity in their father's estimation. It's every girl's.

Hence a muslim might rape any western slut or kill any infidel who looks at his sister.

the T shirt is the economics of coitus.

Anonymous Rollory December 06, 2017 7:03 AM  

I dislike it for the very simple reason that I have several close female relatives who have gotten or have been trying to get married in the past decade or so, and I have seen first-hand their experiences and difficulties in getting that to happen. Having seen how that worked, there is zero doubt in my mind that the message on the shirt would not have provided any psychological assistance at all, and probably quite a bit of extra unnecessary difficulty. I stand by my original comment.

The conclusion I draw here is that Vox simply doesn't have any recent direct experience with the matter, is speaking in ignorance of experimental results, and is reacting on a hair trigger (complete with unfounded presumptions about motivation) simply because he's used to doing that whenever attacked on any topic at all.

It is, of course, not really my problem. And I know better than to think I can convince Vox to change course once he's set it.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera December 06, 2017 7:08 AM  

Rollory,

The primary troubles people have with finding mates today are A) massive narcissism and B) massive alienation. Both are attachment disorders at heart. People with strong fathers generally have neither.

Anonymous Rien December 06, 2017 7:10 AM  

That T-shirt is the ultimate r vs K selector.

It will actually ATTRACT K-selected men while at the same time repulsing r-selected males.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera December 06, 2017 7:11 AM  

I.e. they have internalized the feelings of being loved (contra narcissism) and being protected from harm (contra alienation).

Blogger Phat Repat December 06, 2017 7:11 AM  

Now all that's missing is for you to call them your little "princess" Yeah, that's what all (young) men want, their own little princess, or daddy's girl.

Blogger CM December 06, 2017 7:12 AM  

--This reminds me of Heartiste and Steve Sailer getting cold feet about Weinsteingate, because it "pathologizes male sexuality". You have to wonder what planet they think they're living on.--

The Roy Moore accusations did that more than Weinstein did.

Blogger VD December 06, 2017 7:13 AM  

The conclusion I draw here is that Vox simply doesn't have any recent direct experience with the matter, is speaking in ignorance of experimental results, and is reacting on a hair trigger (complete with unfounded presumptions about motivation) simply because he's used to doing that whenever attacked on any topic at all.

There is something familiar about that odor in the air... I can't quite put a name on it but it really seems familiar....

Blogger Lazarus December 06, 2017 7:15 AM  

Rollory wrote:I dislike it for the very simple reason that I have several close female relatives who have gotten or have been trying to get married in the past decade or so, and I have seen first-hand their experiences and difficulties in getting that to happen.

How old are they?

Blogger Cloom Glue December 06, 2017 7:16 AM  

Aeoli Pera wrote:This reminds me of Heartiste and Steve Sailer getting cold feet about Weinsteingate, because it "pathologizes male sexuality". You have to wonder what planet they think they're living on.
---

Last week, I read https://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/ .

Heartiste's 10th commandment, last couple of sentences, explains Heartiste would be shot. Fornicators do not make it to heaven, unless they repent. In other words, our Father in heaven would shoot Heartiste, too.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) December 06, 2017 7:17 AM  

So you’ll shoot someone who might attack your daughter along the way to school?

Absolutely.

Anonymous Rocklea December 06, 2017 7:17 AM  

I'm hearing Queen with a wicked baseline
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE

Blogger Keyser Soze December 06, 2017 7:17 AM  

Rollory,

Being fat, short hair and unpleasant, not willing to cook are things I learned at this site, which need to be considered. Also you sound like an beta orbiter. Let it go....

Anonymous Nick December 06, 2017 7:18 AM  

All I want for Christmas is Gamma-repellent. Confidently stating your opinions and not backing down brings out the worst in them.

Blogger McChuck December 06, 2017 7:20 AM  

That might make a good "Dark Lord" merch design - a badge with "Father" or "Husband" in the center, with an inscription of "To Provide and Protect".

Anonymous Vincent December 06, 2017 7:21 AM  

it's very different if a daughter is wearing the shirt vs dad wearing a shirt with similar message. Cartoonish chivalry is what dalrock bashes. Not keeping daughters off a pole or from mudsharking.

Blogger John rockwell December 06, 2017 7:22 AM  

" overprotective''

That only applies if the father makes it nearly impossible for men to marry their daughters and continually delays their marriage age. Or takes her to a purity ball which screws with both their psychologies.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) December 06, 2017 7:22 AM  

While people can, and do, go too far - and anything that is more suited for a wedding or a high school prom is going too far -

For the autistic crowd here, that means that purity balls are on the opposite side of the spectrum (no offense) from this shirt.

Blogger McChuck December 06, 2017 7:24 AM  

I can't respect any suitor who isn't willing to challenge me for my daughter. If he's too afraid to challenge me, how could he possibly stand up to an attacker? Her current boyfriend has gone from terrified to merely afraid. That's progress, I guess, towards growing a spine.

Blogger John rockwell December 06, 2017 7:24 AM  

@Dividualist

''"fathers who act like their daughter's "surrogate husband"

Look up pictures of the purity ball and be horrified. It does have solid basis.

Blogger Felix Bellator December 06, 2017 7:27 AM  

I would like to see the breakdown of comments versus "fathers with daughters" and not. I stand with this shirt, and I have daughters.

Blogger Harambe December 06, 2017 7:28 AM  

Josh (the sexiest thing here) wrote:So you’ll shoot someone who might attack your daughter along the way to school?

Absolutely.


Wait, was that actually a serious question?

Blogger Felix Bellator December 06, 2017 7:30 AM  

@34. McChuck - "To Provide and Protect".

The Biblical definition of love.

Blogger Lazarus December 06, 2017 7:31 AM  

Vincent wrote:it's very different if a daughter is wearing the shirt vs dad wearing a shirt with similar message.

Speaking of which, will the daughter wear the T-shirt? If she will, she probably does not need it, if she won't, you have to wonder why.

Anonymous Rollory December 06, 2017 7:31 AM  

"How old are they?"

20-30 range, now.

"There is something familiar about that odor in the air... I can't quite put a name on it but it really seems familiar...."

How would you recommend I react to blatantly false statements about my motivation? I've read this post twice and I don't see any reason in what I said to draw the conclusions you do.

Also, how much personal experience DO you have with women of marriageable or recently-married age? I am absolutely willing to be corrected on that point if I got it wrong.

I deny absolutely that I dislike women, and I deny absolutely that I don't want men protecting the women in their family. This is all veering wide of the point, which is: the shirt will be worn by single, available women. The message on the shirt will be read by single, available men. The primary concern of sane single women tends to be finding a man. This is absolutely harmful to that purpose.

Providing a sense of security and love can absolutely be done without messages like this, which is indeed cartoonish. It is simply not true that any father is going to shoot a thug making moves on his daughter - not in this society, not with the present legal regime. Both the thug and the daughter know it. Making overexaggerated threats that everyone knows are empty - I really don't understand how people can convince themselves this is positive in any way at all.

Blogger Harambe December 06, 2017 7:35 AM  

McChuck wrote:I can't respect any suitor who isn't willing to challenge me for my daughter. If he's too afraid to challenge me, how could he possibly stand up to an attacker? Her current boyfriend has gone from terrified to merely afraid. That's progress, I guess, towards growing a spine.

I don't agree with this approach. What kind of asshole is going to "challenge" his girlfriend's dad? I do however agree that he has to show some spine. But an alpha stand-off isn't my idea of "growing a spine" at all. Unless you meant something else by "challenge"?

Blogger Lazarus December 06, 2017 7:36 AM  

Rollory wrote:"How old are they?"

20-30 range, now.


Then they are too old for the shirt anyway.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) December 06, 2017 7:37 AM  

A PLAY IN THREE ACTS:

That might make a good "Dark Lord" merch design - a badge with "Father" or "Husband" in the center, with an inscription of "To Provide and Protect".

it's very different if a daughter is wearing the shirt vs dad wearing a shirt with similar message. Cartoonish chivalry is what dalrock bashes. Not keeping daughters off a pole or from mudsharking.

I can't respect any suitor who isn't willing to challenge me for my daughter. If he's too afraid to challenge me, how could he possibly stand up to an attacker? Her current boyfriend has gone from terrified to merely afraid. That's progress, I guess, towards growing a spine.

Anonymous Aeoli Pera December 06, 2017 7:38 AM  

It is simply not true that any father is going to shoot a thug making moves on his daughter - not in this society, not with the present legal regime. Both the thug and the daughter know it.

I found the problem.

On the other hand, I respect that you're sticking by your point, miguided though it may be.

Blogger Desdichado December 06, 2017 7:40 AM  

Rollory: "But what about MEEEEE and my anecdotal second-hand experience?"

Srsly?

Anonymous Aeoli Pera December 06, 2017 7:40 AM  

If a person's dad is unwilling to kill for them, male or female they're going to be very insecure.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) December 06, 2017 7:40 AM  

I deny absolutely that I dislike women, and I deny absolutely that I don't want men protecting the women in their family.

Do you renounce Satan?

And all his works?

And all his pomps?

Blogger Al From Bay Shore December 06, 2017 7:41 AM  

@46 I got that too. That seems a shirt for dating aged girls and, perhaps, young women in college who still live at home.

Blogger William Meisheid December 06, 2017 7:43 AM  

My daddy (Heavenly Father) is always watching...

Blogger Billy December 06, 2017 7:45 AM  

Speaking in averages, the shirt made since 50 years ago. Now the typical daughter is out there sluting it up while daddy is sitting on the porch with his head up his ass thinking his princess is perfect and no guy deserves her. I've heard one delusional father say when speaking to another dad, "yeah I told the young man, you can touch her in love, but if you ever touch her in anger you'll be buried in my property out back" or something like that. Meanwhile it's common knowledge his daughter is a coal burning slut. Yet this is what comes out of his mouth to the one decent kid who shows up at his house to take her on a date.

Blogger Desdichado December 06, 2017 7:45 AM  

Harambe wrote:I don't agree with this approach. What kind of asshole is going to "challenge" his girlfriend's dad? I do however agree that he has to show some spine. But an alpha stand-off isn't my idea of "growing a spine" at all. Unless you meant something else by "challenge"?
Yes; there is such a thing as a respectful challenge. He needs to demonstrate that he's got what it takes to deal with my daughter properly and make her happy, which means telling me and demonstrating it to me that he knows how to make things happen, take charge and lead the family-to-be. The first step there is to tell the father; "It's OK, man. I got this now."

I dunno; maybe "challenge" isn't quite the right word, and you've clearly interpreted it in as adversarial a context as possible.

But there is an element of adversariality to it. (Is that a word?) Just as a man has to challenge a woman to demonstrate that he's sufficiently alpha to not put up with her crap, which makes her love him, a man also has to challenge her father to demonstrate that he's sufficiently alpha to deal with the duty of protecting and leading her.

As a father, I'm happy to be successfully challenged in such a way. It's not a challenge that I want to win; it's one that I hope to lose, in fact. Because that means that she's been successful in finding the one who can have a good shot at leading her successfully into the next stage of her life.

Anonymous Rollory December 06, 2017 7:46 AM  

@48

All right. How many cases do you know of where a father actually DOES shoot a guy he doesn't want hanging around his daughter? And in how many of those does he not spend the next ten years in jail?

@46
If I misread it that badly, okay. I admit I didn't go checking sizes. It's the sort of message I would expect to see on late teens / early 20s women, and as I've said, it's a bad message.
If this shirt was intended for

Anonymous Vincent December 06, 2017 7:47 AM  

1. Challenge a man for his daughter? Wtf?

2. Obviously a girl would not wear a humour t shirt on a date, and not this shirt.

Anonymous VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 7:48 AM  

I have seen first-hand their experiences and difficulties in getting that to happen.

Wait. You have first hand experience that these shirts have frightened marriageable alpha males who are interested in a wife who has been fathered well?

That makes zero sense.

Do you realize these are shirts that women want to wear?

Weirdest. White knight. Ever.

Blogger Billy December 06, 2017 7:48 AM  

And I see nothing wrong with the shirt, I also see the rolly point of view. But if someone likes the shirt, hell buy it and wear it

Blogger McChuck December 06, 2017 7:50 AM  

@21 Rollory - Free milk, versus buying the cow. That is esteemed which is hard to obtain. No self respecting man wants to wed a used slut or a woman obviously in need of medication. I don't know a thing about your female relatives, this is just a general statement about relationships in [current year]. A woman who is trawling for a husband is generally obvious and creepy, thus self defeating in her purpose. And as grandpa told me, "All women are crazy, boy. The trick is to never get involved with any woman crazier than a barrel full of shaved monkeys."

Anonymous Rollory December 06, 2017 7:53 AM  

@58
"You have first hand experience that these shirts have frightened marriageable alpha males who are interested in a wife who has been fathered well?

That makes zero sense."

Good, because that's not what I said.

"Do you realize these are shirts that women want to wear?"

Is what women want, especially on the spur of the moment, the guiding rule for what they should do?

Blogger VD December 06, 2017 7:53 AM  

How would you recommend I react to blatantly false statements about my motivation?

I would have recommend that you not react at all, because I did not make any statements about your motivations, let alone "blatantly false" ones. Please feel free to cite them if you disagree. Now you're raising additional questions about your intelligence and your reading comprehension.

I've read this post twice and I don't see any reason in what I said to draw the conclusions you do.

You reacted negatively, very negatively, in fact, so negatively to a t-shirt design that you implied the designer is crazy and wants to fuck his daughters. Do you really not see how that provides any grounds for suspecting that YOU might have some psychosexual issues plaguing you?

Also, how much personal experience DO you have with women of marriageable or recently-married age?

Almost certainly more than you. I am a man who is nearly fifty and is married with children. My turn. Are you married? Do you have daughters?

This is absolutely harmful to that purpose.

As others have stated, this t-shirt would tend to attract a sound young man from a strong family. That apparently does not describe you.

I really don't understand how people can convince themselves this is positive in any way at all.

I have no doubt that you don't. And that speaks volumes about you. Not your motivations, which I believe are pure. It speaks to your inability to understand either female or paternal psychology. Based on what you've said, and what you've said about your sisters, I conclude you had a weak or seldom-present father.

Blogger Lazarus December 06, 2017 7:55 AM  

Milo has referred to Trump as "daddy". Milo needs that shirt.

Anonymous VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 7:57 AM  

A woman of 25 who wears this shirt to the range will have a serious proposal from a successful man within a week.

Blogger Harambe December 06, 2017 7:58 AM  

Desdichado wrote:Harambe wrote:I don't agree with this approach. What kind of asshole is going to "challenge" his girlfriend's dad? I do however agree that he has to show some spine. But an alpha stand-off isn't my idea of "growing a spine" at all. Unless you meant something else by "challenge"?

Yes; there is such a thing as a respectful challenge. He needs to demonstrate that he's got what it takes to deal with my daughter properly and make her happy, which means telling me and demonstrating it to me that he knows how to make things happen, take charge and lead the family-to-be. The first step there is to tell the father; "It's OK, man. I got this now."

I dunno; maybe "challenge" isn't quite the right word, and you've clearly interpreted it in as adversarial a context as possible.

But there is an element of adversariality to it. (Is that a word?) Just as a man has to challenge a woman to demonstrate that he's sufficiently alpha to not put up with her crap, which makes her love him, a man also has to challenge her father to demonstrate that he's sufficiently alpha to deal with the duty of protecting and leading her.

As a father, I'm happy to be successfully challenged in such a way. It's not a challenge that I want to win; it's one that I hope to lose, in fact. Because that means that she's been successful in finding the one who can have a good shot at leading her successfully into the next stage of her life.


Fair enough. Which allows for a nice Seque into one of my favourite scenes from Bad Boys II

Anonymous Rollory December 06, 2017 8:00 AM  

@60
"That is esteemed which is hard to obtain. No self respecting man wants to wed a used slut or a woman obviously in need of medication."

Absolutely. And beside the point. @55 is closer to the mark. A reasonable suitor needs to demonstrate to the father that he's worthy. The father needs to take care that he isn't coming across as excessively adversarial. It's been mentioned that lack of spine is a problem; yes absolutely, and that situation is not helped by further increasing the spinal requirements above what is actually needed.

If one is certain that one's daughter can land the top 1% of spine-endowed men, fine, go for it. Most of the time it's a bad bet. Better to work with a guy in the 40th percentile and help him discover his own spine - but that means not scaring him off by making exaggerated faces at him first.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) December 06, 2017 8:01 AM  

1. Challenge a man for his daughter? Wtf?

I hope he doesn't greet boys at the door with wrestling singlets and shouting IT'S CHALLENGE TIME!

Anonymous Northwest Watching Thing December 06, 2017 8:03 AM  

My wife informed me that her father used to sit on the porch with a shotgun when she went on dates in high school. He was a zfg farmer, and having met many of the locals (i was in the navy hundreds of miles from home) I don't blame him.
I also think my wife would have no problem putting one of these shirts on our daughters (still a bit young).

Blogger Koanic December 06, 2017 8:07 AM  

> Making overexaggerated threats that everyone knows are empty

If one actually intends to murder an over the line suitor, one would be best advised to not use a gun and not announce the intention beforehand.

Blogger dienw December 06, 2017 8:07 AM  

Katie, too, is tormented by the abduction monsters embedded in modern parenting.
It is obvious that Katie thinks fathers are potential monsters; she probably divorced her husband and has visiting boyfriends until she can find a suitable step-father for her daughter.

Blogger McChuck December 06, 2017 8:08 AM  

@45 Harambe - Show a spine. Show that you consider her to be valuable, not merely fun to be around. Show that you consider her to be yours now, not mine any longer. I stood up to my father-in-law for my wife. When he was cleaning his shotgun as I arrived to pick up my date, I took interest and inquired as to the make and model, and whether or not he hunted with it. Why should I respect as a man, husband, protector and provider, a boy who doesn't have the balls to show he's ready to be a man?

To put it another way - suitors have to pass a shit test to weed out the gammas. They have to earn my respect.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) December 06, 2017 8:09 AM  


If one is certain that one's daughter can land the top 1% of spine-endowed men, fine, go for it. Most of the time it's a bad bet. Better to work with a guy in the 40th percentile and help him discover his own spine - but that means not scaring him off by making exaggerated faces at him first.


There's a wide gap between those two points on the socio sexual hierarchy. Which one do you fall closer to?

Blogger VD December 06, 2017 8:09 AM  

If one is certain that one's daughter can land the top 1% of spine-endowed men, fine, go for it. Most of the time it's a bad bet. Better to work with a guy in the 40th percentile and help him discover his own spine - but that means not scaring him off by making exaggerated faces at him first.

Just asking for a "friend", right?

Who gives a quantum of a damn about some weak, spineless guy? I certainly don't and no self-respecting woman will either. Rollory, if this shirt is too much for you, actually dealing with a woman on a day-to-day basis for the rest of your life is going to be well beyond your psychological capabilities.

Anonymous SAK December 06, 2017 8:09 AM  

It's been mentioned that lack of spine is a problem; yes absolutely, and that situation is not helped by further increasing the spinal requirements

No ordinary guy would be threatened by that shirt. If soneone is triggered to run away by it then the women is better off without him. He's a blubbering emotional wreck.

This entire episode is amazing to me. I saw the original post with the shirt, laughed, and moved on. How did we ever end up here, debating whether it prevents good marriages?

Blogger RC December 06, 2017 8:11 AM  

I married a woman loved and protected by her father. Once married, those responsibilities fell to me. That is the way it's supposed to be and that's precisely why this is a great shirt. It warns the would-be predators and scares the undesirables. Strong men of high character would be intrigued and would use the shirt to open.

Blogger Harambe December 06, 2017 8:13 AM  

McChuck wrote:@45 Harambe - Show a spine. Show that you consider her to be valuable, not merely fun to be around. Show that you consider her to be yours now, not mine any longer. I stood up to my father-in-law for my wife. When he was cleaning his shotgun as I arrived to pick up my date, I took interest and inquired as to the make and model, and whether or not he hunted with it. Why should I respect as a man, husband, protector and provider, a boy who doesn't have the balls to show he's ready to be a man?

To put it another way - suitors have to pass a shit test to weed out the gammas. They have to earn my respect.


Sorry then. That sounds exactly like the kind of thing I'd want to see and have done in the past with my girlfriends' dads.

Blogger dc.sunsets December 06, 2017 8:13 AM  

I raised my sons to make of themselves worthy partners, and to each seek a good woman with whom to travel Happiness Path. I'd have done the same for daughters, hoping they would attract a good, decent, honorable and capable man.

Beyond physical protection of ones children and their mother, a father who instills values, honor and honest self-worth in his children (mostly by example, since words alone are shallow) gives them a lifetime of protection.

Kids grow up and leave. Only idiots fail to equip their kids with the primary armory necessary to navigate this world full of occult hardship & surrounded by sweet-smelling temptations that prove as crippling as a spinal injury.

Anonymous VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 8:14 AM  

Is what women want, especially on the spur of the moment, the guiding rule for what they should do?

Buy a shirt that they want?

Hell yes, especially if you are the seller.

A woman bragging about her father's protection is a good thing all around, and it is generous to call you a fool for not just missing it, but for calling good evil.

Anonymous Rollory December 06, 2017 8:18 AM  

@62

"I would have recommend that you not react at all, because I did not make any statements about your motivations"

You ended your post with the statement "Honni soit qui mal y pense". This statement was made in reference to me and my comment. It looks to me (and your next comment reinforces this) that you are saying I am covering for my own psychosexual issues. That looks to me like talking about my motivations.

"You reacted negatively, very negatively, in fact, so negatively to a t-shirt design that you implied the designer is crazy and wants to fuck his daughters."

That was not the intended implication. The intended implication was that the father of the daughter wearing it has sexual jealousy issues. Dalrock's articles on the topic do go into detail on how that would work, which is why I linked one. I did not mean anything about you; I find it entirely believable that you find it unimaginable to think that way.

"Almost certainly more than you. I am a man who is nearly fifty and is married with children. My turn. Are you married? Do you have daughters?"

No and no. When was this experience? 20-30 years ago? I'm talking about the way in which I've seen people behave in the past ten years. The norms have changed and are continuing to do so.

"As others have stated, this t-shirt would tend to attract a sound young man from a strong family."

Asserting this is one thing. Showing it actually happens is another. But as I said, I don't expect to convince you to change course.

"I conclude you had a weak or seldom-present father."

He has admitted to me that he doesn't understand the whole men-women thing and has no useful advice for me. Beyond that, he has been elected to city council, has received various other honors from the community over the years, was often present through my childhood, was a disciplinarian when necessary, is a collector of rifles, and is the most honorable man I have ever known. Whether you feel this validates or disproves your conclusion is your affair.

All the same, thank you for the response.

Blogger Aeoli Pera December 06, 2017 8:19 AM  

Regarding spines: It's good to make time to help young men to find their spines. Courtship with one's daughter is not that time.

Regarding murder, penalties, etc.: Murder is always on the table. It's a matter of risk, cost, and moral appropriateness. You don't murder little Johnny for getting too touchy, but you absolutely murder him for rape or attempted rape. Also, burying someone in the backyard is bad planning, that's the first place they'll look.

Regarding Alpha challenges: http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/alphabehavior.htm#alphadog

Blogger RC December 06, 2017 8:20 AM  

Using the modern virginity-selling market, men are willing to pay in the six and even seven figures to take a young woman's virginity (crazy of course.) But those auctions establish that virginity in a young, attractive woman has a very high value indeed. The wise woman will use hers to land the best man she can at a young age. This shirt advertises a high probability of a virginal woman.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) December 06, 2017 8:25 AM  

When was this experience? 20-30 years ago? I'm talking about the way in which I've seen people behave in the past ten years. The norms have changed and are continuing to do so.

Math is hard

Anonymous Opus December 06, 2017 8:25 AM  

Far too often a Father's concern for his daughter is close to very close to incestuous longing along the lines of 'if I can't have her then no one else will either'. That the State treat eighteen year old females as adult (whilst allowing them on all occasions to play the pussy-pass) hardly assists.

Anonymous Rollory December 06, 2017 8:25 AM  

@74

"How did we ever end up here, debating whether it prevents good marriages?"

How many women of marriageable age do you currently know?

Blogger Phat Repat December 06, 2017 8:26 AM  

Speaking so casually of killing is evidence of a lack of stones to carry out said act. And those who have killed certainly don't speak of it.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) December 06, 2017 8:28 AM  

Far too often a Father's concern for his daughter is close to very close to incestuous longing along the lines of 'if I can't have her then no one else will either'.

Have you actually stepped outside and talked to actual people in the last decade?

Blogger McChuck December 06, 2017 8:29 AM  

"When was this experience? 20-30 years ago? I'm talking about the way in which I've seen people behave in the past ten years. The norms have changed and are continuing to do so."

@79 - Norms and standards are different things. The "norms" may have changed, but that doesn't mean I have to accept them. In Asia, people regularly eat dogs and cats. Doesn't mean I have to. If all your friends jump off a bridge, will you follow them?

Blogger Harambe December 06, 2017 8:31 AM  

Opus wrote:Far too often a Father's concern for his daughter is close to very close to incestuous longing along the lines of 'if I can't have her then no one else will either'.

You what's gonna really fry your noodle? Your girlfriend is genetically basically half her dad and half her mom, so every time you guys bone it's like you're making sweet love to her mom and dad in the word's most awkward orgy.

Anonymous Rollory December 06, 2017 8:31 AM  

@73
"Just asking for a "friend", right?"

The person I have in mind is actually a new boyfriend I was introduced to a couple months back. He'll do, but he could use some help.

It's surprising to me that, in a society where everyone KNOWS that strong male role models are very lacking and assertive male behavior is discouraged at every turn, people still expect men to conduct themselves in the same manner, and blame the men when they don't.

Again, this is one of Dalrock's recurring topics.

"Who gives a quantum of a damn about some weak, spineless guy? I certainly don't "

Except that I'm not talking about you. You are, as you repeatedly indicate, out of the ordinary.

Blogger VD December 06, 2017 8:35 AM  

You ended your post with the statement "Honni soit qui mal y pense". This statement was made in reference to me and my comment. It looks to me (and your next comment reinforces this) that you are saying I am covering for my own psychosexual issues. That looks to me like talking about my motivations.

First, you have thought evil. The quote was absolutely relevant and justified. Second, you clearly don't understand the difference between motivations and issues. The fact that you revealed some of your psychological issues gives us a clue to your possible motivations, but it does not say anything about them.

That was not the intended implication. The intended implication was that the father of the daughter wearing it has sexual jealousy issues.

I know. What you clearly don't understand is that means you not only implied, you admit that you intended to imply that I am in the set of fathers who supposedly have sexual jealousy issues. I don't appreciate your implication, I absolutely reject it, and I have near-boundless contempt for you and all the other nasty little gamma males who think evil of normal healthy family relationships.

If this shirt is sufficient to scare you off, then that is an added bonus, because I definitely wouldn't want a creep like you around one of my daughters.

He has admitted to me that he doesn't understand the whole men-women thing and has no useful advice for me.

Close enough. You don't understand it either. So you have no wife, no daughters, a socio-sexually clueless father, and you think you're going to correct me on the nature of family relationships?

Let me put this plainly: you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. You're not only wrong, you are offensively wrong.

Blogger VD December 06, 2017 8:36 AM  

Far too often a Father's concern for his daughter is close to very close to incestuous longing along the lines of 'if I can't have her then no one else will either'.

That's absolute and utter bullshit.

Blogger Volpack December 06, 2017 8:37 AM  

My daughter is a young teen. My wife is buying one of these shirts for her as one of my Christmas presents.

If you can't see the difference between a young school aged girl wearing this and a 24 year old grad student wearing it, then you aren't the market. Don't buy it.

And quit squealing, it is just embarrassing.

Blogger Harambe December 06, 2017 8:39 AM  

Rollory wrote:
It's surprising to me that, in a society where everyone KNOWS that strong male role models are very lacking and assertive male behavior is discouraged at every turn, people still expect men to conduct themselves in the same manner, and blame the men when they don't.

Western society has been feminized. And with being feminized, everything is a giant-ass shit test to weed out the weak. If giving a compliment is "rape", then only a guy who is supremely confident in his alpha-ness would even think of giving said compliment. It's not exactly a new thing either. CS Lewis wrote about this in Men Without Chests and he was hardly the first to mention it either.

Blogger Aeoli Pera December 06, 2017 8:42 AM  

Harambe wrote:Opus wrote:Far too often a Father's concern for his daughter is close to very close to incestuous longing along the lines of 'if I can't have her then no one else will either'.

You what's gonna really fry your noodle? Your girlfriend is genetically basically half her dad and half her mom, so every time you guys bone it's like you're making sweet love to her mom and dad in the word's most awkward orgy.


That's why it pays to marry into a strong family. If the dad is a cuck, your sons will be cucks.

Blogger VD December 06, 2017 8:45 AM  

And those who have killed certainly don't speak of it.

Scene: a home in Northern Virginia.

Three college students are welcomed into a home by a short, very fit older man with a buzz cut. Introductions are made. The older man promptly points to a furry grey hat with a red star on it that is on top of the coat stand in the corner.

"Boys, you know what the difference is between you and me? Do you see that hat? I KILLED the man who wore that hat!"


Six years later, the older man was named the 31st Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps. The hat had previously belonged to a Chinese colonel serving in Korea.

You have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

Blogger McChuck December 06, 2017 8:47 AM  

@89 - Yes, discouraging male role models is a concern about life in [current year]. The feminists pretend to be horrified that society is reaping that which they've sown. Feminists hate men. That's why they approve so strongly of gays and girly men. Do you remember a few years ago when a "scientific" study in Spain "proved" that men were defective women, and were desperately in need of modification?

Feminism is indeed cancer. There is no real cure other than radical surgery followed by a program of targeted chemotherapy, but the vaccination process is well known, if rather lengthy.

Anonymous SAK December 06, 2017 8:47 AM  

How many women of marriageable age do you currently know?

Since I am of marriagable age myself I am unsurprisingly surrounded by them: sisters, cousins, niece, friends, co-workers, wife, wife's friends, etcetera. It is more than I am even going to try and count.

Not that it matters. You only need a basic knowledge of people and the world to know that shirt and items like it are not the reason people have problems forming good marriages.

The shirt is amusing. Its subtext is wholesome. It threatens nobody who would be worth marrying.

If you can't see this for yourself, or pick it up from the comments people have already made then I have no idea how to help you.

Blogger Gordon December 06, 2017 8:50 AM  

Look, Vox is being uncharacteristically patient here. This is a gift. Use it to reflect on this.

I am the first to admit that I am very dense on some aspects of family dynamics. I have thought about it and I think I understand why. But even with my stunted knowledge, I got this shirt instantly, even while my spergy side was quibbling with the exact wording.

What's more, I would have gotten it at age 12.

This...You are being far to literal, and reading way too much into it at the same time. The message of this shirt should resonate with your masculine soul. It should be so obvious to you that no discussion is needed. No father needs to wear this shirt. It's for girls, and any girl who doesn't get it, and want it, lacked a good father (or is a bit spergy herself).

Blogger Felix Bellator December 06, 2017 8:50 AM  

VD: "Are you married? Do you have daughters?"

Rollory: "No and no."

Arrived at the gun fight with a knife, check.

Walk away proud, Rollory. Walk away, go find a sense of humor.

Anonymous Critically Bent December 06, 2017 8:54 AM  

@34

With a crossed scythe and AR for the logo.

Blogger James Dixon December 06, 2017 8:54 AM  

> I can't respect any suitor who isn't willing to challenge me for my daughter.

That brings to mind another country song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLoQS0GnhWk

> the shirt will be worn by single, available women. The message on the shirt will be read by single, available men. The primary concern of sane single women tends to be finding a man. This is absolutely harmful to that purpose.

The shirt will be worn by teenager girls being dated by teenage boys, both of which can definitely use the reminder that there is an authority figure who takes an interest in these matters.

> All right. How many cases do you know of where a father actually DOES shoot a guy he doesn't want hanging around his daughter? And in how many of those does he not spend the next ten years in jail?

Hmm. I'd have to do some research to be sure. But the short answer to your question Rollory is that you really don't want to know the answer, because knowing it would destroy your world view.

> I'm talking about the way in which I've seen people behave in the past ten years.

And what does that matter? Norms can change all they want. A farther protecting his daughter is a fact that will last as long as humanity does.

>

Anonymous Maximo Macaroni December 06, 2017 8:55 AM  

No mention here of the mother's role, which should be support and thankfulness for her husband's strength and steadfastness. Today many mothers would be ridiculing their husbands and urging their daughters to "get it while you can" and ignore stupid old Nazi Dad.

Blogger VD December 06, 2017 8:58 AM  

Just wait until the "my husband" version is available. One wonders what sort of allegedly male freaks are going to be triggered by that.

Anonymous Chris December 06, 2017 8:58 AM  

"You have obviously never met a U.S. Marine who has seen combat and killed enemy combatants."

Know a few Special Forces guys. They speak quite freely about their time in combat. Literally none of them have a problem with killing or talking about killing and would not hesitate to shoot someone threatening to harm their daughter. With that in mind, anybody who is even remotely intimidated by this shirt is exactly the sort men who kill do not want around their daughter. Why would a father want his daughter dating a pussy, especially someone who views a father protecting his daughter as an obstacle rather than a sign that she's loved and raised right? Don't we want women to be raised that way so they don't grow up to be "feral"?

Blogger Gordon December 06, 2017 9:01 AM  

Today many mothers would be ridiculing their husbands

Yes. That is certainly true. But note the previous commenter who said that his wife is buying the shirt as a gift for their daughter. And I know lots of wives like that.

Anonymous Ck December 06, 2017 9:02 AM  

Roklory is wrong about Dalrock. Roklory understands Dalrock like a woman's ministry understands scripture.

Rollory the shirt isn't the problem, if you brought your daughter up as a precious princess or allowed her to act like a JAP then the shirt is not going to help her marry a good man. On the other hand if you brought her up to be a good wife/mother then she needs to be around men that will appreciate this shirt. Maybe your sisters should hang around a different crowd.

Anonymous Avalanche December 06, 2017 9:02 AM  

OP: "it is about giving the daughter the strength and the permission to say "no" to the wrong ones in the full knowledge that her father will have her back."

When I ran an advice list for young women (well, ladies in their 30s... so, young to me), one of the ways I explained what I was teaching: gracefully saying no to sexual importuning by young men. Men have the right to ASK; however women don't have the right to castigate or insult them for asking, just the right (and, I'd say: the responsibility!) to say no). In my view, religious girls had a "built-in" way to gracefully say no: "God wouldn't like it if I did that." (Now, alas, having just heard Stefan Molyneux about STDs: the numbers aren't great: girls who sign no-sex pledges have essentially the SAME incidence of STDs as girls who don't.)

My point in teaching graceful rejection (to both kinds of girls!) was that non-religious girls really COULDN'T say, in modern times, "No, my daddy wouldn't like it if I did that." Because (dammnit) lots of their fathers not only wouldn't tell them no, they help them get birth control!! And most of the religious girls had not been able to avoid the modern propaganda that boys and young men "do not have the right" to ask... so they, too, were taught to slap men down for asking. (Wrong, bad, inappropriate.)

My mantra for all of them was (and is): draw a boundary and observe it: you stay on YOUR side of it and here is how to (gracefully) tell him to stay on his.

I think it's a great t-shirt!

Anonymous SAK December 06, 2017 9:04 AM  

Just wait until the "my husband" version is available. One wonders what sort of allegedly male freaks are going to be triggered by that.

Indeed, but after this I'll at least be ready for it.

Anonymous Rollory December 06, 2017 9:05 AM  

All right, I've said my piece. Walking away.

Anonymous Critically Bent December 06, 2017 9:05 AM  

My number one complaint about this shirt is that it looks like it will be TOO TIGHT!

Loose fitting numbers only!

All my girls are already trained to this and the older ones have an understanding of why.

To quote one of them upon seeing a friend in too revealing clothes, "Why is she wearing that? Doesn't she know what it says?" Meaning what the outfit said about the girl and her character.

Anonymous Faceless December 06, 2017 9:08 AM  

I don't have any daughters myself but

It's a Rorschach test because people expect (1) it to be worn by the father, and (2) to be along the line of "Her Body, Her Rules", and this inverts it.

There's a strong mental association that the purity ball set is the same group that says their daughters have to be strong, independent women with two MAs and well-traveled before somebody worthy enough will be permitted to consider wifing up a post-wall princess. This isn't that.

Anonymous Asatru Heathen December 06, 2017 9:11 AM  

I find the shirt creepy. It also smacks of try-hard mate-guarding behaviour. No axe to grind - just product feedback from a potential customer.

The message is that the person who only just met the wearer has a lethal weapon pointed at them right now. They are a presumed threat, the same way 'all men are potental rapists'; technically true (or close enough), but rude and off-putting. You are probably not going to like someone who threatens you with lethal force on first meeting them, and putting that threat on a t-shirt does not change that.

I bow to Vox's interpretation of the intra-sex status signalling; I claim no expertise there.

Nobody is forcing me to buy the shirt, of course, and Vox is free to sell and promote whatever he likes. But I suspect the appeal of this shirt is far more niche than some of his other offerings.

Anonymous Avalanche December 06, 2017 9:14 AM  

@2 "The World doesn't want daughters protected, so they slime the Men that protect their daughters."

This brings to mind the SJW squealing when Pence said he doesn't meet with a woman without his wife at his side... Just read a new essay somewhere and the idiot (SJW) writer was saying that it maybe is a GOOD idea (in his/her/its) view; because not being alone with some woman would protect the *women* from someone fertilizing a plant in front of her... Its WHOLE viewpoint was: Pence's idea would protect the woman from predator-men! Not mentioned (I'm sure not even recognized by this idiot) was: this was about protecting the MEN from lying women!

I'm about 90% sure Pence (and other such wise men!) is not doing this to keep HIMSELF from groping some chick -- it's to protect HIMSELF from some chick lying to get rich or famous! (Really?! Does she/he/it REALLY think that's the point; that somehow Pence is just itching to grope a girl!?)

(And then, multiple places around the web, I see: of COURSE, SJW women think "all" men are like that -- all the "men" they know ARE like that: liberal bunny sleazebags!)

Blogger Phat Repat December 06, 2017 9:16 AM  

@VD Hadn't realized you served.

Blogger SciVo December 06, 2017 9:16 AM  

It's piling on at this point, but I got here late and agree with those who say that he's misrepresented Dalrock's position (although now I believe unintentionally, due to an inability to draw distinctions). IIRC, what Dalrock shreds are the *fake* protectors, like the buff guy in the "Rules For Dating My Daughter" t-shirt where #1 is "She makes the rules." That's just throwing her to the rooster carousel, and then virtue-signaling about it.

So it's coming across like an accidental "let's you and him fight" where he just can't tell the difference.

Anonymous Avalanche December 06, 2017 9:18 AM  

@4 'to fathers who act like their daughter's "surrogate husband"."

Lo, how pathetically FAR we have come from recognizing normal and appropriate patriarchy! A father is NOT acting like a surrogate husband by drawing a clear boundary (i.e., cleaning his shotgun and asking pointy questions of a potential suitor); he's acting LIKE A DAD!!

This is what a good father does with his prized possession, the fruit of his loins! Passing your genes into the future includes ensuring the 'other half' of your future has equally good genes and upbringing!

Blogger SciVo December 06, 2017 9:19 AM  

Or maybe that was Chateau Heartiste? (You know you live in a topsy-turvy world when a "Dalrock or Heartiste?" quiz would be hard to pass.)

Blogger VD December 06, 2017 9:20 AM  

@VD Hadn't realized you served.

I didn't.

I suspect the appeal of this shirt is far more niche than some of his other offerings.

It will be our bestseller.

Blogger James Dixon December 06, 2017 9:21 AM  

> You are probably not going to like someone who threatens you with lethal force on first meeting them, and putting that threat on a t-shirt does not change that.

Why wouldn't I? The threat of lethal force between men is always present. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand reality. Making it and the reason for it explicit is a welcome change.

> But I suspect the appeal of this shirt is far more niche than some of his other offerings.

How popular is the Day by Day comic? It had a strip with the exact same theme.

Anonymous burgmeister December 06, 2017 9:22 AM  

No and no. When was this experience? 20-30 years ago? I'm talking about the way in which I've seen people behave in the past ten years. The norms have changed and are continuing to do so.

This is not about norms, good joke though.

This is about female and male nature. And nothing in the history of man suggest that it will ever change.

I'm aware. It doesn't mean that there aren't people walking this earth who have no idea what female and male nature is. Eternal truths are much harder go grasp than temporary norms. Most are of this world.

Anonymous Asatru Heaten December 06, 2017 9:27 AM  

It will be our bestseller.

Fair enough. My opinion of the shirt is clearly a minority view.

Anonymous Avalanche December 06, 2017 9:30 AM  

@23 "That T-shirt is the ultimate r vs K selector. It will actually ATTRACT K-selected men while at the same time repulsing r-selected males."

BRAVO! It also helps the girl stay in her "K-selected" (K-inculcated) mind-set. (Don't forget, our (mental emotional physical) anchors aren't nearly as strong as they might be... And the forceful tides washing over us 24/7/365 make it awfully hard to keep the anchor 'set.'

Okay, more solipsism: but I hope it's a useful example: As a 15-yr-old (feeling the "stirrings of womanhood" in its most dangerous form), I was "in love" (not really of course, but I was 15) with a British exchange student who was in our town for a month. (He was probably 17?) We spent a lot of time together. I was a good girl, so not even a lot of kissing.

As the Brit's last week arrived, my dad (bless him!) looked over his glasses at me and said, almost in passing (no gun cleaning in my house): "no parting gifts!" (Embarrassed the hell out of me, although I cannot say I wasn't thinking (feeling?) of it -- and, of course, the boy was asking for it; but it 'strengthened my resolve' and I did not act my my raging hormones.

That T-shirt might just help re-set a drifting anchor, eh?

Anonymous Avalanche December 06, 2017 9:33 AM  

@28 "I dislike it for the very simple reason that I have several close female relatives who have gotten or have been trying to get married in the past decade or so, and I have seen first-hand their experiences and difficulties in getting that to happen.
How old are they?"

And how feminist? I always remember fondly a male member of my group who made clear: no man wants to bring an ENEMY into his house! Unless and until 'modern' women heal themselves of the ill-will they have been filled with, they are not FIT MATES for a man! (Ask me how I know!)

Anonymous Raker Tooth December 06, 2017 9:35 AM  

Sorry, only read to #19, and that is well said. I showed the T shirt to 3 teen age daughters 5 minutes ago, they were raised in a Christian home, they immediately laughed. Maybe it's a geographical thing...10 years ago I was caught up in the beginnings of a full blown feud between families here in East Tn. So yeah, we tend to be a -bit- old fashioned, but the shirt only begins to address the reality on the ground. There are the older brothers, so that makes a couple more dots, then one call to the neighbors, and heck, the guy would look like a Christmas tree. Some poor lost people just don't have a sense of community, I tell you.

Anonymous Asatru Heathen December 06, 2017 9:42 AM  

Why wouldn't I? The threat of lethal force between men is always present. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand reality. Making it and the reason for it explicit is a welcome change.

That's an interesting question. Interrogating my motives for a moment, I think it is because any person who thinks I require a threat of lethal force in order to motivate me not to rape/whatever clearly has a very low opinion of me. Not an objectively good reason to dislike someone perhaps, but an honest one.

Equally, a person who is quick to use threats and coercion to get what they want may well continue to use threats and coercion to try and get other things they want. Having successfully 'convinced' me not to rape/whatever, what else might they want from me? Is my life so empty that I have nothing better to do than hang around and find out?

I make no pretension of being an alpha male; I would generally rather avoid or diffuse conflict unless doing so requires the sacrifice of something I value. This shirt sets up a conflict (or acts as a marker of future conflict) before I/whomever has anything invested in a relationship with the wearer, thereby disincentivising that investment.

Perhaps this in a shirt that will primarily be enjoyed by women and alpha males.

Anonymous BBGKB December 06, 2017 9:43 AM  

It's not just girls that need protecting
Male models sue bad (((photographer)))

http://www.towleroad.com/2017/12/jason-boyce/

who might attack your daughter along the way to school? Being attracted to is considered attacking. Okay, maybe if we’re a Muslim nation

Why do you think will need the shooting?

simple reason that I have several close female relatives who have gotten or have been trying to get married in the past decade or so, and I have seen first-hand their experiences and difficulties in getting that to happen

Oy Vey those 40+yo 1/2 jew niglerettes who screwed everyone in town have to hold out hope for Prince Harry Pothead. Related Weka said all the good women in the world are hiding out in a Crossfit in New Zealand.

So you’ll shoot someone who might attack your daughter along the way to school?Absolutely.Wait, was that actually a serious question?

Of course it was a serious question, if you get your news from other than 5jews you know about the broad daylight sidewalk rape of a white woman on a busy street. Dozens called 911 but no one stopped to help. http://www.truecrimereport.com/2010/01/anferney_fontenet_15_rapes_wom.php

I deny absolutely that I dislike women, and I deny absolutely...Do you renounce Satan? And all his works? And all his pomps?

With women you have to chose between loving them or understanding them. Do you renounce all his pimps??

I hope he doesn't greet boys at the door with wrestling singlets and shouting IT'S CHALLENGE TIME!

Daughters of gay couples complain about their parents hitting on their boyfriends.

If I misread it that badly, okay. I admit I didn't go checking sizes.

Even 6xl girls might need protection as seen in the sidewalk rape story

Anonymous Avalanche December 06, 2017 9:44 AM  

@55 "Yes; there is such a thing as a respectful challenge. He needs to demonstrate that he's got what it takes to deal with my daughter properly and make her happy, which means telling me and demonstrating it to me that he knows how to make things happen, take charge and lead the family-to-be. The first step there is to tell the father; "It's OK, man. I got this now."
I dunno; maybe "challenge" isn't quite the right word, and you've clearly interpreted it in as adversarial a context as possible."

I believe challenge is not the right word -- the putative husband is not 'taking' the daughter away from; he is JOINING WITH the father to protect this jewel. As in joining any war band protecting what the 'tribe' values, the husband is bringing his strength and protectiveness to the genetic future of the father's tribe (and his own). The husband has to prove his WORTH to his future father-in-law to be given this future -- but not in an adversarial fashion (as you wrote).

Blogger James Jones December 06, 2017 9:44 AM  

That's it - double down.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) December 06, 2017 9:45 AM  

My number one complaint about this shirt is that it looks like it will be TOO TIGHT!

Loose fitting numbers only!

All my girls are already trained to this and the older ones have an understanding of why.

To quote one of them upon seeing a friend in too revealing clothes, "Why is she wearing that? Doesn't she know what it says?" Meaning what the outfit said about the girl and her character.


All this thread needed for the cherry on top was for the modest is hottest Chrislamists to show up.

Blogger Desdichado December 06, 2017 9:46 AM  

You are probably not going to like someone who threatens you with lethal force on first meeting them, and putting that threat on a t-shirt does not change that.

Are you sure you're a man?

Anonymous Looking Glass December 06, 2017 9:47 AM  

@113 Avalanche

It's straight up the "Billy Graham Rule". The rise of Magazines and lots of travel meant that there was simply too much ambush risk. Trump actually ran a similar version of it, but that's because he had too much money to risk losing.

Most Women are a massive down-side risk.


@122 Avalanche

Agreed that it's a K-selector. And a sign of wife material. Cue Ivan Throne links!

Blogger wreckage December 06, 2017 9:47 AM  

"The primary concern of sane single women tends to be finding a man."

No, the female imperative is sorting (and genetics), because she will dependent on her prospective mate and gets relatively few shots at offspring. Availability (and youth) are male drivers.

These are of course very general statements, but they're reasonably well-attested. For example, they predict the differences in male and female ratings of the attractiveness of potential mates.

Anonymous Causal Lurker December 06, 2017 9:47 AM  

I'm waiting for the companion shirt, printed in bright yellow with a piece of construction equipment: "That red dot on your chest means my daddy has friends with backhoes."

I sent the link to a couple of friends with younger daughters, waiting to hear the LOLs later. Offered to buy the shirts as gifts (in correct size) if they want to blame their crazy friend.

The provide/protect aspect includes the invitation to pass the Test, demonstrating you are worthy of her.

@104 Chris, I have a number of friends and some associates with similar backgrounds. Many do not speak directly about what they did in [their particular phrase], unless they are sure of their company and who won't talk details. When wives, sweethearts, and daughters come up (in this thread's context), you hear oblique references to anthills, rockfalls, and accidents in the country, among other non-sequiturs.

Blogger Gordon December 06, 2017 9:48 AM  

modest is hottest Chrislamists

Oh, I thought so also, but I didn't come up with such a succinct description.

Blogger Desdichado December 06, 2017 9:50 AM  

The provide/protect aspect includes the invitation to pass the Test, demonstrating you are worthy of her.

I think that's the best way to describe it. It's not a challenge, it's an invitation to pass the test.

But you have to take the test. That's the challenge part of it.

Blogger James Jones December 06, 2017 9:52 AM  

Please ban this whiny, gamma ass-hat.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) December 06, 2017 9:52 AM  

Fair enough. My opinion of the shirt is clearly a minority view.

Given your handle, you probably have a minority view on many subjects.

Blogger wreckage December 06, 2017 9:53 AM  

I've worn t-shirts tighter than that. To properly assess the best-advantage dress without crossing into overtly sexual display is the mark of a young lady of taste and sophistication. I would never date or court a woman who routinely wore tents.

Blogger VD December 06, 2017 9:55 AM  

I think it is because any person who thinks I require a threat of lethal force in order to motivate me not to rape/whatever clearly has a very low opinion of me.

The fact that you think someone else's t-shirt has anything to do with you is enough to a) identify your low socio-sexual rank and b) explain why you are so sensitive to people having a low opinion of you.

What is your opinion of someone who gets upset because someone next to him is wearing an "I'm with stupid ->" shirt?

Now rethink your reaction.

Blogger VD December 06, 2017 9:56 AM  

Please ban this whiny, gamma ass-hat.

Which one? And no, they haven't done anything wrong except express their perspectives.

Blogger Silly but True December 06, 2017 9:56 AM  

Loosely associated to topic of protecting girls.

TIME is so courageous for awarding two of the victims raped by Hillary Clinton - Cathy O'Brien & Brice Taylor/Susan Ford - as #TIMEPOY for telling their stories, coming forward on Alex Jones and in Internet web videos!
https://twitter.com/TIME/status/938386081795502080?s=17

Anonymous Asatru Heathen December 06, 2017 9:57 AM  

Are you sure you're a man?

Quite certain.

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!


There's a lot of tough stuff in there, but no requirement to like building relationships via the threat of lethal force. No requirement to enjoy conflicm at all, actually. That is not the measure of a man, although I suspect many have mabe the mistake of thinking it is.

Blogger Desdichado December 06, 2017 9:58 AM  

You're quite certain because you can quote poetry? And yet the mysteries of male bonding elude you.

Convincing.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother December 06, 2017 9:59 AM  

This shirt doesn't make me fear for my sons' health. They'll be welcomed at the door by my future daughter in law's father (mostly likely Dread Ilk himself), and offered Scotch and cigars in the study.

Not bourbon, because bourbon is for faggots.

Blogger Gunnar von Cowtown December 06, 2017 9:59 AM  

1. That shirt is comedy gold, and I'll most certainly order one for my daughter for Christmas.

2. I've always enjoyed Vox's forays into humor, but now I understand why he doesn't do it all that often.

3. The train is fine.

Anonymous lckychrmsrr December 06, 2017 9:59 AM  

Both Dalrock and Rollory appear to have forgotten that support and protection are the two primary male roles in every relationship with women and children, and that stable young women really do treasure those things.

+1 to 112. Asatru

As a father of three daughters, the shirt also struck me as something I would not allow them to wear. Don't misunderstand, if my girls were ever in need of actual physical protection, I would NOT hesitate to provide it. Vox is correct that this protection is something daughters value and treasure. This shirt (to me) doesn't seem to send that same message though.

Instead, it seems like more of the false-posturing a lot of Beta dads do just to feel good about themselves without providing any actual protection. The "chads" of the world are very familiar with the bluffing-beta dad archetype and would likely associate this shirt with a target that has no real risk of fatherly protection.

It was probably not the intent of the designer to imply this, as Vox has already clearly outlined he feels it is about providing a positive message of protection, but it correlates (to me) with the same message that try-hard dads send when the say stupid stuff like "Anything you do to her, I'll do to you." It's the same idea that if you have to issue an ultimatum, you've already communicated you've lost control of the situation.

If you don't trust your daughter's date to the point that you have to make threats, you have no business allowing her out the door. THAT is what protection and support actually looks like in that situation. Or provide a chaperone you trust to ensure things stay safe and chaste when friendly suitors come calling. You absolutely do not let her leave with someone you consider to be a threat to her though.

Obviously, others in this thread feel differently about the message of the shirt. Wear it or buy it if you want. Just be aware that there are multiple messages this shirt sends. Go forth with full knowledge of that and do what you will.

Blogger James Jones December 06, 2017 10:00 AM  

Give up Rollory. Admitting you are in over your pretty little head won't destroy you.

Blogger wreckage December 06, 2017 10:04 AM  

@146 the point though is that it's not the father blustering. By wearing it the girl indicates that SHE sees her father's role as protective, establishing a relational hierarchy that the youngster has to adapt to.

If he accepts it with good humour and good grace, that's a pretty neat rorschach test he's passed, which was probably her intent in wearing it anyway.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother December 06, 2017 10:05 AM  

The dad isn't wearing it, though. The daughter is. That's the whole point. The dad isn't making a threat or ultimatum. When she walks down the street wearing it, T Dog (assuming he is literate) will read that and move on to easier prey.

Blogger Aeoli Pera December 06, 2017 10:06 AM  

Stg58/Animal Mother wrote:Not bourbon, because bourbon is for faggots.

And here I thought this thread was gay before.

Blogger James Jones December 06, 2017 10:07 AM  

You didn't say your piece. You shit all over this blog with your offensive, weak, twattery. Now you are slipping and sliding amongst all that shit and can't get any purchase. So go on, slide on out of here.

I have a fourteen year old daughter. If she ever brings home a man like you I will blow my own brains out for failing her so comprehensively.

Blogger Koanic December 06, 2017 10:08 AM  

Seeing the shirt on the daughter of a white resident US citizen would lead me to conclude that the girl's father is a conservative who doesn't understand that the primary threat to his daughter's well-being is her hypergamic penchant to shame him with a string of alphas, which he is exacerbating by encouraging her to be confident of her physical security as she flaunts the goods while he's not around.

In a less degenerate sociolegal context, if the girl seemed chastely cautious, I would conclude that the father is equally as likely to punish his daughter for shaming him as he is to murder/shotgun-marry an interloper.

Blogger Austin Ballast December 06, 2017 10:09 AM  



I dislike it for the very simple reason that I have several close female relatives who have gotten or have been trying to get married in the past decade or so, and I have seen first-hand their experiences and difficulties in getting that to happen. Having seen how that worked, there is zero doubt in my mind that the message on the shirt would not have provided any psychological assistance at all, and probably quite a bit of extra unnecessary difficulty. I stand by my original comment.

You leave a whole bunch of things out of this Rollory. How old were these women? What kind of man were they targeting? Were they <20 and looking to establish a lifetime marriage or were they nearing or past 30 and desperately looking for a safe jump from the carousel?

I bet it is closer to latter as that is far more common today. Such women have made their own beds and get to deal with the consequences of it. Even just being too picky, something that happens to many little princesses, will impact their lives.

Note that few fathers could/would force this shirt on their daughters, so wearing it would be her choice. Why is that a bad thing in your view of exalting the woman?

OpenID franklinfreek December 06, 2017 10:09 AM  

My teenage daughter laughed uproariously.

Ordered

Anonymous Überdeplorable Psychedelic Cat Grass December 06, 2017 10:10 AM  

As Vox said, there's a difference between the way out of left field nonsense that Dalrock blasts and simply protecting your daughter form the evil of the world.

Dividualist wrote:"fathers who act like their daughter's "surrogate husband" "

Actually it is the other way around, husbands are surrogate fathers of their wives, because most women (exceptions excepted) are effectively children and need to be protected from their own mistakes.

This is a very confused view. Fathers are not surrogate husbands, they don't do husbandly stuff like having sex with their daughters. Husbands are surrogate fathers as they do normal fatherly stuff like ruling over her, preventing her from making mistakes, and protecting her from other men, and generally whatever fathers should do with a child or in case of women a childish adult.

Why is it hard for Darlock to see?


"Fathers...don't do husbandly stuff like have sex with their daughters..." Well, with the exception of the antagonist from A Cure For Wellness. Spoiler alert: he dies.

@27 SJW? Gamma?

McChuck wrote:I can't respect any suitor who isn't willing to challenge me for my daughter. If he's too afraid to challenge me, how could he possibly stand up to an attacker? Her current boyfriend has gone from terrified to merely afraid. That's progress, I guess, towards growing a spine.

@38 Thanks for explaining the obvious to the beta/handwringing crowd.

Billy wrote:Speaking in averages, the shirt made since 50 years ago. Now the typical daughter is out there sluting it up while daddy is sitting on the porch with his head up his ass thinking his princess is perfect and no guy deserves her. I've heard one delusional father say when speaking to another dad, "yeah I told the young man, you can touch her in love, but if you ever touch her in anger you'll be buried in my property out back" or something like that. Meanwhile it's common knowledge his daughter is a coal burning slut. Yet this is what comes out of his mouth to the one decent kid who shows up at his house to take her on a date.

@54 That's just sad man.

Blogger James Jones December 06, 2017 10:11 AM  

But it's not aimed at you, so don't worry about their opinion. It's aimed at men who warrant the low opinion.

Anonymous Überdeplorable Psychedelic Cat Grass December 06, 2017 10:11 AM  

SAK wrote:It's been mentioned that lack of spine is a problem; yes absolutely, and that situation is not helped by further increasing the spinal requirements

No ordinary guy would be threatened by that shirt. If soneone is triggered to run away by it then the women is better off without him. He's a blubbering emotional wreck.

This entire episode is amazing to me. I saw the original post with the shirt, laughed, and moved on. How did we ever end up here, debating whether it prevents good marriages?


@74 You think you've seen it all and then there's freak outs over shirts like this that remind you a) you have not seen it all and b) you've just observed a new level of crazy.

dc.sunsets wrote:I raised my sons to make of themselves worthy partners, and to each seek a good woman with whom to travel Happiness Path. I'd have done the same for daughters, hoping they would attract a good, decent, honorable and capable man.

Beyond physical protection of ones children and their mother, a father who instills values, honor and honest self-worth in his children (mostly by example, since words alone are shallow) gives them a lifetime of protection.

Kids grow up and leave. Only idiots fail to equip their kids with the primary armory necessary to navigate this world full of occult hardship & surrounded by sweet-smelling temptations that prove as crippling as a spinal injury.


MPAI.

VD wrote:And those who have killed certainly don't speak of it.

Scene: a home in Northern Virginia.

Three college students are welcomed into a home by a short, very fit older man with a buzz cut. Introductions are made. The older man promptly points to a furry grey hat with a red star on it that is on top of the coat stand in the corner.

"Boys, you know what the difference is between you and me? Do you see that hat? I KILLED the man who wore that hat!"


Six years later, the older man was named the 31st Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps. The hat had previously belonged to a Chinese colonel serving in Korea.

You have NO IDEA what you're talking about.



That would be Charles Krulak, correct?

VD wrote:Just wait until the "my husband" version is available. One wonders what sort of allegedly male freaks are going to be triggered by that.

Men who say my wife makes the decisions will be triggered. I kid you not. There are people in my industry that co-workers deal with who say those exact words.

Desdichado wrote:You are probably not going to like someone who threatens you with lethal force on first meeting them, and putting that threat on a t-shirt does not change that.

Are you sure you're a man?


He's questioning at the moment, heh.

Anonymous fop December 06, 2017 10:12 AM  

Jesus Christ it's just a shirt.

Rollory must get the vapors when he sees a "World's Best Dad" mug.

Anonymous VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 10:14 AM  

@89

"The person I have in mind is actually a new boyfriend I was introduced to a couple months back. He'll do, but he could use some help."

If a spinster's new boyfriend is going to run if she wears a t-shirt, she is better off living a free life as an object lesson for younger women, rather than shackling herself to Scalzi.

Blogger Austin Ballast December 06, 2017 10:18 AM  

I see Rollory noted a wide age range. 20-30 is far too wide. I would still be it is closer to the top than the bottom and my point would stand. Ladies who wait like that are preparing for the results they are getting.

Anonymous VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 10:18 AM  

fop wrote:

Rollory must get the vapors when he sees a "World's Best Dad" mug.


Bad example. That's an offensive mug! Think about all the children of the world (not me, mind, you, but close personal friends of mine) who have terrible fathers. Do you realize how threatened they feel, simply by seeing a mug like that?

Mugs like that only advance the cause of feminism, because it portrays the patriarchy as benevolent competition.

PLAIN MUGS FOREVER!

Blogger Silly but True December 06, 2017 10:20 AM  

FFS, if a new guy is too fragile to put up with some harmless trolling of their prospective new role in the family, daughter's best to move on, and dad's right to needle them.

Blogger Josh (the sexiest thing here) December 06, 2017 10:22 AM  

Go forth with full knowledge of that and do what you will.

That's, that's Aleister Crowley's music!

Anonymous Avalanche December 06, 2017 10:22 AM  

@119 "The threat of lethal force between men is always present."

I LOVED that my husband used to describe a man (not a male, a MAN) walking into a room and immediately sussing out the other men present: "are you a dog or a bitch, can I take you if I have to?" (And the other MEN recognizing him back.)

(And just to give hope to as-yet-unmarried men, if any is needed?) I was a horrible terrible shrill feminist; I was SO not a fit mate for any man (and all the men I ever met -- if only I had recognized them AS men -- would have agreed)! I used to say that "I needed a man who was stronger and smarter than I was (and I did!) -- but that I had never met one!"

After my husband finished educating and 'taming' me (he called me his feral female); I modified that (in my advice to young women) that "I had most assuredly met such stronger men -- but they wisely and silently backed away from me!" (Because no man wants to bring an enemy into his house.)

(Many, not all) Women ARE recoverable from the propaganda; but it's usually a one-on-one process and it takes boatloads of patience and time. (And of course, you absolutely don't want to try to 'clean up' the town bike!)

Anonymous Protective Parent December 06, 2017 10:24 AM  

Any man reacting in a negative way to this shirt had better stay the hell away from my daughter. My husband's first reaction to the shirt was, "I don't need a laser sight." If your reaction was to feel threatened or impugned, that tells me you're weak or a creep. Either way, you're moving along.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 06, 2017 10:31 AM  

"why do men like Dalrock and Rollory dislike it so much?"

Standard mode of operations = predatory.

Blogger Gunnar von Cowtown December 06, 2017 10:34 AM  

The train is fine.

Blogger allyn71 December 06, 2017 10:34 AM  

So much Gamma butthurt. We have seen it so many times over the years here that you think I would expect and accept it, but no, everytime these little bitches come on whining and doubling down they make me want to puke.

It is an awesome shirt, the end.

Anonymous lckychrmsrr December 06, 2017 10:35 AM  

@148:the point though is that it's not the father blustering. By wearing it the girl indicates that SHE sees her father's role as protective, establishing a relational hierarchy that the youngster has to adapt to.

If he accepts it with good humour and good grace, that's a pretty neat rorschach test he's passed, which was probably her intent in wearing it anyway.


I disagree. The way I see it is as bluster by proxy. It's even worse for daughters to be issuing threats on your behalf. They should feel secure that you have their back without having to resort to posturing.

So instead of a deterrent, it communicates a threat display (social posturing) in place of actual TRUE risk. Anyone who "calls your bluff" on that display is now in control. Situationally alpha. That is not a mindset you want suitors to be in with regards to your daughter. You surrender your headship once she gets married and grant him alpha status with regards to your daughter at the wedding. Until then, don't surrender your frame.

The best way she can communicate her father's role as protective and establish a relational hierarchy is to require all her suitors to gain permission from her father before dating. If he accepts THAT with good humor and grace, then he's passed the test.

I know you and others are interpreting it as her displaying a mark of pride in her father which is desirable. This shirt isn't communicating that message.

Anonymous Just another commenter December 06, 2017 10:36 AM  

Speaking as someone with a HS-age daughter, I thought it was funny, and laughed. It's serious-ish, but not literal. Sort of like Rutland's Daddy's got a 45.

My daughter can shoot and cook, doesn't do social media, is smart and reads voraciously but doesn't talk much, has long hair... I don't think she'll have a problem finding a husband, with or without a shirt like that.

Anonymous BBGKB December 06, 2017 10:37 AM  

OT: DNA company adds niglets to woodpiles
http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2522-inside-shady-world-dna-testing-companies.html

Anonymous VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 10:37 AM  

Rollory, can you explain why you think it is important for unmarried women to not feel valued?

Anonymous Avalanche December 06, 2017 10:38 AM  

This thread has been quite fascinating; seeing the different perspectives 'triggered' by a shirt. Such an interesting mix of "absolutely" and "why the need to threaten" -- and the various explanations for the many positions. I just LOVE this blog!

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 06, 2017 10:38 AM  

"Being attracted to is considered attacking."

What part of little girl did you not understand?

Heck, I made a joke about a v-neck with that being entrapment in the original advertising thread, also thinking of the 18+ crowd. I at least had the grace to go and find the source of the quote and figure out it was actually about elementary/middle/etc. aged girls.

You didn't even have the grace to read the article before commenting on it.

A cranio-rectal extractor should be on your shopping list.

Anonymous Looking Glass December 06, 2017 10:40 AM  

VD brings up an interesting question:

Did you ever get a chance to talk to Victor Krulak? https://infogalactic.com/info/Victor_H._Krulak

Blogger Koanic December 06, 2017 10:40 AM  

I agree Icky, with the caveat that in places where daddy personally or through associates actually is liable to have armed vengeful eyes on her back, it is no longer a foolish bluff.

Anonymous burgmeister December 06, 2017 10:40 AM  

I think it is because any person who thinks I require a threat of lethal force in order to motivate me not to rape/whatever clearly has a very low opinion of me.

It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault.

I'm sure you like that movie, no? Everything is always about you. You can't imagin something not meant for you. Are you also convinced that Trump grabbed your pussy?

Anonymous DaDZ December 06, 2017 10:41 AM  

Dalrock has never objected to a father being protective of his daughter. The focus of the essay to which I believe Rollory is referring is on the topic of the "Daughter/wife." In it he picks apart the absurdity of the father who, through his hyper-vigilant protectiveness of his daughter(s), is saying what amounts to "this pussy in mine." There are some seriously questionable pics linked in which fathers and daughters are posing together as husband and wife in preparation for the girl's "Purity Ball," a kind of prom that celebrates the girl's virginity. His main beef is with the ridiculous notion of the big, scary Daddy greeting the boy at the door with a shotgun. It's a stupid, empty threat that would never be carried out, and if any father ever took such extreme measures he'd make himself look like a buffoon.

Anonymous VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 10:41 AM  

lckychrmsrr wrote:I disagree. The way I see it is as bluster by proxy.

Women can't bluster by proxy, any more than they can win the heavyweight title. You've fumbled it badly.

Anonymous lckcychrmsrr December 06, 2017 10:42 AM  

@163:Go forth with full knowledge of that and do what you will.

That's, that's Aleister Crowley's music!


Naw. Think more in the vein of Romans 14. I'm not passing judgment. Just stating how it looks and now knowing that, you can do or not do. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it as I doubt you will over my opinion. Neither will I attempt to usurp God's place and condemn you to eternal damnation for it. Lord knows, I have enough faults of my own.

Blogger tz December 06, 2017 10:42 AM  

Part of the very protection of the daughter is teaching her to be the she wolf cub and to control her hypergamy and otherwise for her to have courage and be able to protect herself. That doesn't mean trying to make her a lone wolf that will leave the pack, quite the opposite. Not a weak dependent woman, but a strong woman who properly submits to proper authority, including the father and husband.

One thing lost to memory in Christendom is that marriages were the union of families, so you'd have aunts, uncles, cousins on both sides come together.

Simply adding a preacher and having two isolated individuals say words to create a partially coupled couple isn't marriage.

The corresponding T-Shirt for men has a shorter and older saying:

No Hymen, No Diamond.

God in his wisdom. Sealed for my protection.

Anonymous lckychrmsrr December 06, 2017 10:45 AM  

@179:lckychrmsrr wrote:I disagree. The way I see it is as bluster by proxy.

Women can't bluster by proxy, any more than they can win the heavyweight title. You've fumbled it badly.


You might want to look up the definition of bluster.

Anonymous jacopo December 06, 2017 10:46 AM  

Is there a version that says "my mom's husband is watching"? Asking for a friend.

Anonymous VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 10:46 AM  

It's a stupid, empty threat that would never be carried out, and if any father ever took such extreme measures he'd make himself look like a buffoon.

You are clueless. As a teenager, I was greeted by two different shotgun toting dads. Neither looked the buffoon. One was a fun date, the other one was dull. Both girls eventually married well. The dads who wouldn't dream of monitoring their daughters were the buffoons.

Anonymous VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 10:49 AM  

@182

You might want to look up the definition of bluster.

talk in a loud, aggressive, or indignant way with little effect.

How the hell do you talk by proxy?

Now, go step on another rake, Sideshow Bob.

Blogger Koanic December 06, 2017 10:56 AM  

> How the hell do you talk by proxy?

A proxy is someone who talks for you.

Blogger Azure Amaranthine December 06, 2017 10:58 AM  

"I dislike it for the very simple reason that I have several close female relatives who have gotten or have been trying to get married in the past decade or so, and I have seen first-hand their experiences and difficulties in getting that to happen."

Did it ever occur to you for even a split second that they probably lied to you about pretty much everything they told you regarding those situations? Barring fat/ugly/old/dirty/slutty, there are plenty of men out there looking for women. Ominous Cowherd(iirc)'s daughter actually has a legitimate excuse in that they live in a very remote location with likely extremely small communities that actually might not have any suitable young men around. Your relatives? 99% they're some combination of ugly/fat/bad personality, rather than being overprotected by daddy. Are they going to tell you those things, or in some cases actually realize those things themselves? Almost certainly not.

Do you comprehend that girls slutting around is a much larger and earlier problem that contributes directly to them being unable to land a good man later on?

Do you realize that girls actually expect their husband to be like their daddy in some ways? This isn't just Freudian either. If a girl's daddy wouldn't shoot someone to protect her if necessary, what kind of weak, predatory gamma slimebucket is she going to be adapted for? Fathers' actions and attitudes set their daughters' subconscious expectations for what a man should be, at the very least.

Anonymous SAK December 06, 2017 10:59 AM  

b) you've just observed a new level of crazy.

I'd say new type - for myself at least - rather than level. It was a fresh new kind of bizarre, but less magnitude than many things I have seen.

And Rollory is really not so bad. His reaction to the shirt was strange, his questioning me about the women I know silly, but having said all he had to say and finding nobody agreed he did the dignified thing and moved on:

All right, I've said my piece. Walking away

Which if stuck to puts him far ahead of many people I've come across on the internet.

Blogger Solaire Of Astora December 06, 2017 11:00 AM  

Maybe this guy just doesn't recognize how dangerous the world is. It would explain his stupid pseudo-freudian interpretation rather than the realistic one that recognizes the existence of evil and a rational concern over it. If you aren't hyper vigilant in this time of decline then you should kill yourself because you're part of the problem.

Anonymous lckychrmsrr December 06, 2017 11:02 AM  

@185:@182

You might want to look up the definition of bluster.


talk in a loud, aggressive, or indignant way with little effect.

How the hell do you talk by proxy?


prox·y
ˈpräksē/Submit
noun
noun: proxy
1.
the authority to represent someone else, especially in voting.


You seriously need this spelled out for you? Try and follow the logic here:

* Staring from the position that the shirt is a bluff,
* It is therefore a "bluster" in that it is being aggressive with little (no) effect
* The daughter issuing the threat instead of the father, is doing it by representing authority that is not her's alone

Blogger DaDZ December 06, 2017 11:06 AM  

Who the hell said anything about dads not monitoring their daughters? That is a requirement of fatherhood. Threatening a young man with a firearm after he has been invited into your home and posed no legitimate threat to your safety is a felony (and yes I'm a gun owner before you start labeling me as an anti-gun liberal). The fact that you were greeted by shotgun toting fathers yet still took their daughters out on dates proves my point further.

Anonymous VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 11:07 AM  

So, a girl who chooses to wear this shirt is thereby given authority to represent her father's message, which she has generated, not him?

To hell with advanced vocabulary terms like "bluster." I now realize you don't even understand how t-shirts work.

Anonymous Pitcrew December 06, 2017 11:07 AM  

The shirt by itself isn't the problem. It's who is wearing it. One type of girl wears a shirt like that, and is a bit too wild- is compensating for something and we all know what that is- and that is an immediate turn off. Another type, the good girl, more down to earth and good natured, that is entirely different, but the absolute right thing for the right type of guy.

Unfortunately more of the former exist than the latter. Women will lie to increase SMV. You can't send good guys into that type of dating market expecting all girls are good, when most lie. That's how you ruin alot of good guys chances to create stable families. That's how we get to where we are now as a society. Do not forget that we are explicitly warned about this in scripture.

Blogger Austin Ballast December 06, 2017 11:10 AM  

Many are slamming Dalrock here, but did he ever comment on this shirt? I couldn't find that.

He tends to go after fathers acting like boyfriends, such as taking their daughters to dances and proms. That is a different thing.

Anonymous Asatru Heathen December 06, 2017 11:10 AM  

I think it is because any person who thinks I require a threat of lethal force in order to motivate me not to rape/whatever clearly has a very low opinion of me.

The fact that you think someone else's t-shirt has anything to do with you is enough to a) identify your low socio-sexual rank and b) explain why you are so sensitive to people having a low opinion of you.

What is your opinion of someone who gets upset because someone next to him is wearing an "I'm with stupid ->" shirt?


The text you quoted was not directly related to the t-shirt, but rather to a subsidiary question about why I do not care to begin my relationships with threats of lethal violence. The very question concerned my views and reactions to particular set of circumstances.

I have no particular problem with people having a low opinion of me. I simply can't see any particular reason to waste my time interacting with someone who will require so much more work that a person more favourably disposed to me.

My actual thoughts on the t-shirt were that it was creepy and smacked of try-hard mate-guarding.

Blogger Dire Badger December 06, 2017 11:13 AM  

It's a friggin funny teeshirt. Why does it have to be analyzed?

Married...with children. Al was a decent man. He deserved far better than the treatment he got.

Anonymous VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 11:16 AM  

HOW THE FUCK IS A WOMAN "mate-guarding" HERSELF?

You gammas are fundamentally broken. Never try to swallow the red pill sideways.

Blogger Stg58/Animal Mother December 06, 2017 11:17 AM  

Al Bundy killed on The Dirty Dozens.

Blogger ((( bob kek mando ))) - ( Real Men correct Nate ... 's ... speeling ◕‿◕ ... ◔ ⌣ ◔ ... ◕‿↼ Passive Aggressively ) December 06, 2017 11:18 AM  

21. Rollory December 06, 2017 7:03 AM
I have several close female relatives who have gotten or have been trying to get married in the past decade or so,



and their notch count over the last decade is?

not wanting to suffer the obvious consequences of their actions is a Human trait ( hello, Communism ) but it's also a particularly Female one ( hello, Eve ).


11. Timmy3 December 06, 2017 6:11 AM
So you’ll shoot someone who might attack your daughter along the way to school?


what kind of a freak are you, that you would have a problem with shooting someone who was attacking your daughter? wouldn't you shoot someone who was raping your son?

because you seem a bit slow, i'll also point out that lighting them up with a target pointer is NOT "shooting them".

it merely indicates the ability and forethought necessary to do so.


44. Rollory December 06, 2017 7:31 AM
The primary concern of sane single women tends to be finding a man.


i'm not much concerned about what you think is or is not "sane".


44. Rollory December 06, 2017 7:31 AM
This is absolutely harmful to that purpose.


signalling to the suitor ( rare enough in itself, when most interactions are Tinder swipe booty calls ) that she has a father who is concerned about her and will protect her is
...
insane.

otay dokey.



58. VFM #6306 December 06, 2017 7:48 AM
Weirdest. White knight. Ever.



i disagree. Male Feminists are where we get the term 'mansplaining' from. they do so love to tell women how they are Feminist-ing wrong.



83. Opus December 06, 2017 8:25 AM
Far too often a Father's concern for his daughter is close to very close to incestuous longing



ah. another Fraudian and his Elektra complex.

you ARE aware that Freud just made all that up, right? that there's no IFLScience! there?



89. Rollory December 06, 2017 8:31 AM
in a society where everyone KNOWS that strong male role models are very lacking and assertive male behavior is discouraged at every turn



because Men develop spines by ... never being challenged?

otay dokay.

you know, i'm perfectly okay with you thinking that *I* am the insane one.



112. Asatru Heathen December 06, 2017 9:11 AM
The message is that the person who only just met the wearer has a lethal weapon pointed at them right now.



and the lack of the theoretical laser dot on their chest implies?

Anonymous Asatru Heathen December 06, 2017 11:24 AM  

I think it is because any person who thinks I require a threat of lethal force in order to motivate me not to rape/whatever clearly has a very low opinion of me.

It's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault.

I'm sure you like that movie, no? Everything is always about you. You can't imagin something not meant for you. Are you also convinced that Trump grabbed your pussy?


I don't understand your initial reference, but you are essentially paraphrasing Vox's post of 45 min earlier. I have already responded to his post.

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